The long-term geo-political consequences of Vinland's survival?

[chornedsnorkack]

. Was the known L'anse aux Meadows site the best choice? Would another location have served better for the fast-start? Newfoundland makes sense for an initial settlement due to proximity to Greenland/Iceland, but perhaps the Southern tip of the island would have been better than the Northern end? There's a number of great harbors on the south end, plus it's much closer to the Grand Banks. Also, Newfoundland could have served as a useful transit point for a large group of traders working what we now know as the St. Lawrence, or down the East Coast - Nova Scotia, Maine, etc.

L´Anse aux Meadows is good exactly for a transit point because it is on Belle Isle strait. You have 4 coasts meeting there: the Labrador Sea coast of Labrador/Markland to northwest, the Labrador Sea coast of Newfoundland to southeast, the Saint Lawrence coast of Labrador to southwest and Saint Lawrence coast of Newfoundland also to southwest.

Also, the shortest and most convenient route to Nova Scotia is not around the northeast and south coasts of Newfoundland - it is a long detour open to ocean storms. Much easier to follow the western coast of Newfoundland to Corner Brook or so and then cross the Cabot strait to Cape Breton island. There will be no need to return to open Atlantic till the Gut of Canso forces the choice.
Because west coast of Newfoundland is also a decent route to Saint Lawrence. There is an alternative, sure - follow the south coast of Labrador right from Belle Isle strait to Anticosti. But sailing to Cape Breton, and then along the northern coast of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island is a decent alternative... which shares the beginning as far as the Gut of Canso with the route to Atlantic coast.

I have suggested that Cape Breton Island might be an early Norse settlement after L´Anse aux Meadows, precisely because of its convenient branchpoint location, and other reasons. Any comments?

 

[altwere]

It would be a good spot, Fish and timber with some good harbors.
A later area for settlement could be on the islands in the Gulf of Maine. Very good fishing and after a couple of years of running sheep on them one could grow small amount of grain.

 

[Faeelin]

L´Anse aux Meadows is good exactly for a transit point because it is on Belle Isle strait. You have 4 coasts meeting there: the Labrador Sea coast of Labrador/Markland to northwest, the Labrador Sea coast of Newfoundland to southeast, the Saint Lawrence coast of Labrador to southwest and Saint Lawrence coast of Newfoundland also to southwest.

I've seen it argued that L'Anse aux Meadows was probably not the main settlements of Vinland (i.e., Hop), because it was clearly a good transit point, and because it doesn't match the description the sagas.

 

[Driftless]

Disclaimer - what little I know of maritime Canada comes from maps, I've never been there in person.

Your logic on L'anse aux Meadows makes sense. Cape Breton also works as a logical extension of a thriving Vinland colony. What about Prince Edward Island, or another location on Newfoundland along the Soutwest coast?

I'll beat the drum for an early North American shipyard as a means of sustaining the development of the colony. Any location more favorable over another site? I would think it would begin as a small boatyard. something where clinker built boats for 2-4 oarsmen for fishing, local travel, and small river work. From there, they could have progressed on up to larger sea going Knarrs & the like.

On a parallel track, perhaps the Vinlanders, adapt to the local boats they've encountered by this point, especially as inter-marriage is likely. The native Greenlander's were using skin covered kayaks & umiaks, correct? What type of boats did the Mikmaq (sp?) use?

 

[Bavarian Raven]

I've seen it argued that L'Anse aux Meadows was probably not the main settlements of Vinland (i.e., Hop), because it was clearly a good transit point, and because it doesn't match the description the sagas.
__________________

This. ^

From the descriptions in the sagas, Hop seems to have been located somewhere on the southern flank of the St. Lawrence Gulf. Or so the more serious analysis of the sagas proclaim.

That being said, the best bet (imho) would be a smaller island off the coast of Newfoundland to be the initial settlement. Easier to secure and hold.

 

[Demothenes]

Is there any way that the settlement would be forgotten, or lose their ties to Europe, leaving the moment of truth to come with Cabot.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Disclaimer - what little I know of maritime Canada comes from maps, I've never been there in person.

Your logic on L'anse aux Meadows makes sense. Cape Breton also works as a logical extension of a thriving Vinland colony. What about Prince Edward Island,

What are its strategic advantages?

or another location on Newfoundland along the Soutwest coast?

Newfoundland does not have southwest coast, Newfoundland has a southwest corner.
So, if the Norse are choosing a foothold - which side of Cabot strait?
For one thing, Cape Breton island is over the Strait, so going beyond no longer involves Cabot Strait crossing.
For another, the Cape Breton side features Bras d´Or lake, absent on the southwest corner of Newfoundland.

I'll beat the drum for an early North American shipyard as a means of sustaining the development of the colony. Any location more favorable over another site? I would think it would begin as a small boatyard. something where clinker built boats for 2-4 oarsmen for fishing, local travel, and small river work. From there, they could have progressed on up to larger sea going Knarrs & the like.

I suspect that they would begin with Knarrs.
Look at it this way: how did they go to Vinland in the first place? By Knarrs, that could complete the several nights crossing of Labrador Sea from Greenland to Vinland.
But Greenland does not have straight wood for knarrs. Neither does Iceland.
All ships in Greenland and Iceland had to be imported from Norway. They were expensive, and by the time they reached Vinland probably used for a long time, repaired, worn and thoroughly iffy.

The Norseman in Vinland, seeing abundant tall forest that did not exist anywhere this side of Norway might take the risk in going back to Greenland with his worn out and iffy knarr, if he was on a short voyage. But if he had some time, he could undertake to use all that wood to build a brand new knarr, and return to Greenland. If his old one was still usable, he might sail that back as well with a skeleton crew and sell it.

Or his options might be constrained if he happens to wreck his old knarr exploring the reefs of the unknown land.

But yes - small boats would be next thing! The same Norseman, who needed the knarr to spend nights at Labrador Sea with his supplies and his kine and horses would find the knarr sitting deep in water and unwieldy to maneuver. So he would anchor it in a suitable deep port, leave the bulk of his men and women herding the herds, growing grain, cutting wood for a new knarr et cetera - and build a smaller boat which could get in shallower rivers and explore the shorelines with a smaller crew. After all, even Cabot Strait is just 90 km wide... a small sailboat that has waited for a fair wind might do that in one summer day without needing a night at sea that is unavoidable on Labrador Sea, and Cape Breton happens to have high hills visible a long distance over sea.

 

[Driftless]

Originally Posted by Driftless
Disclaimer - what little I know of maritime Canada comes from maps, I've never been there in person.

Your logic on L'anse aux Meadows makes sense. Cape Breton also works as a logical extension of a thriving Vinland colony. What about Prince Edward Island,

What are its strategic advantages?

If in the locals were unfriendly, PEI might be more easily defensible by the Vikings with larger ships - that's all

Originally Posted by Driftless
or another location on Newfoundland along the Soutwest coast?

Newfoundland does not have southwest coast, Newfoundland has a southwest corner.

An inaccurate description on my part. based on your description of the Atlantic facing parts of Newfoundland, I was asking about prospective sites on the South Coast from, say Placentia Bay over around the point up to St George's Bay on the West.

So, if the Norse are choosing a foothold - which side of Cabot strait?
For one thing, Cape Breton island is over the Strait, so going beyond no longer involves Cabot Strait crossing.

A thriving Vinland would eventually have towns on both sides.

For another, the Cape Breton side features Bras d´Or lake, absent on the southwest corner of Newfoundland.

Fresh water? There are smaller ponds and streams on that southern & western side of Newfoundland, correct?

Originally Posted by Driftless
I'll beat the drum for an early North American shipyard as a means of sustaining the development of the colony. Any location more favorable over another site? I would think it would begin as a small boatyard. something where clinker built boats for 2-4 oarsmen for fishing, local travel, and small river work. From there, they could have progressed on up to larger sea going Knarrs & the like.

I suspect that they would begin with Knarrs.
Look at it this way: how did they go to Vinland in the first place? By Knarrs, that could complete the several nights crossing of Labrador Sea from Greenland to Vinland.
But Greenland does not have straight wood for knarrs. Neither does Iceland.
All ships in Greenland and Iceland had to be imported from Norway. They were expensive, and by the time they reached Vinland probably used for a long time, repaired, worn and thoroughly iffy.

The Norseman in Vinland, seeing abundant tall forest that did not exist anywhere this side of Norway might take the risk in going back to Greenland with his worn out and iffy knarr, if he was on a short voyage. But if he had some time, he could undertake to use all that wood to build a brand new knarr, and return to Greenland. If his old one was still usable, he might sail that back as well with a skeleton crew and sell it.

All good. I was thinking small yard first, as there is some need of infrastructure: a sturdy rig for handling large logs and cutting & shaping them into planks, a framework for supporting the boat/ship during construction, and the ability to launch. The smaller boats would be easier to start with. All of that assumes you've got carpenters & ship riggers avaialble with sufficient skill. That last bit reminded me, they'd could really use ropemakers, sailmakers too, though some of that could be imported in need.

*edit* The small boat piece could be helped if the Vinlanders learned the boatcraft of Umiaks and Kayaks from the native Greenlanders

 

[Driftless]

What would be the economic base of a successful Vinland?

There are a number of obvious possibilities:

natural resources available close by: lumber, fish,hunting, furs, etc.

Local trade? But what for what?
* Big jump of development - There's some limited amounts of coal & iron ore in Newfoundland - I believe... Trade of basic iron products: knife blades, axe heads, hoe heads, etc.
* Trade of domesticated animals from Europe? (including all of the potential downsides)
* What's coming back to Vinland? Furs? Copper, lead?

What other start up trade commodities exist?

*edit* what level of critical mass of population would be needed for the Vinlanders to be more than a temporary outpost?

 

[Faeelin]

Is there any way that the settlement would be forgotten, or lose their ties to Europe, leaving the moment of truth to come with Cabot.

I don't see how or why. The Greenlanders were trading with Europe up until the end. Maybe there'd be minimal contact, but something seems quite plausible.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

If in the locals were unfriendly, PEI might be more easily defensible by the Vikings with larger ships - that's all

Still not very defensible. A determined raiding party on canoes can land on an undermanned stretch of the coast.

What helps with islands is that they are demarcable. The said raiding party cannot exactly pretend that they got lost chasing a moose and did not know they were trespassing, so they are still friendly. Also water barriers help against sheep or kine wandering away when the herders turn their back.

Boularderie Island should be rather more manageable size for a Norse settler party...

Fresh water? There are smaller ponds and streams on that southern & western side of Newfoundland, correct?

Actually, Bras d´Or is salty. No, I mean sheltered water - quite a big chunk of coast.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

*edit* The small boat piece could be helped if the Vinlanders learned the boatcraft of Umiaks and Kayaks from the native Greenlanders

Umm... There AREN'T any 'native Greenlanders' when Vinland was settled.

The Thule people (basically early Inuit) came later.

However, there WERE Dorset people in northern Newfoundland at the time, and one theory is the 'magic ball' weapons were harpoons with seal bladder floats.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I've seen it argued that L'Anse aux Meadows was probably not the main settlements of Vinland (i.e., Hop), because it was clearly a good transit point, and because it doesn't match the description the sagas.

In what way does it not match the Sagas?

 

[Faeelin]

In what way does it not match the Sagas?

For one thing, the Sagas suggest it was founded near a wooded area, and that it had a wooden wall. Neither are present are the site.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

What would be the economic base of a successful Vinland?

There are a number of obvious possibilities:

natural resources available close by: lumber, fish,hunting, furs, etc.

Local trade? But what for what?
* Big jump of development - There's some limited amounts of coal & iron ore in Newfoundland - I believe...

And coal at Sydney. But coal is irrelevant - charcoal is abundant, easy to make and better quality anyway.

Trade of basic iron products: knife blades, axe heads, hoe heads, etc.
* Trade of domesticated animals from Europe? (including all of the potential downsides)

Their neighbours are hunter-gatherers, who do not know how to handle a domesticated animal. But the animal products would be better to trade! Meat, cheese, butter, woollen cloth. And domesticated plant products - grain, flour, bread, beer.

* What's coming back to Vinland? Furs? Copper, lead?

Who smelted lead in America? Nearest copper mines are on lake Superior, and these were traded.

*edit* what level of critical mass of population would be needed for the Vinlanders to be more than a temporary outpost?

Greenland Western settlement was almost as far from Eastern settlement along uninhabited coast as Vinland across Labrador Sea. It lasted over 3 centuries and never had 1000 souls. Erik the Red started in 986 with critical mass of 560 souls split between Eastern and Western settlement.

 

[Umbral]

I think the question of what would be a good starting settlement again depends on the POD, and the number of settlers. If you have a small number of settlers, a small island or somewhere defensible would be best.

An island some distance away from the coast, close to the grand Banks, with wood for ships and soil for farming would be ideal. Maximizes the Norses naval advantages, and allows them access to a resource they can tap more easily than the natives.

If you have a large intital settlement with more settlers coming in...well you have a lot more choice. The population density of an agricultural society, with excellent fishing thrown in, is going to outmatch the local population densities by a long shot.

 

[Faeelin]

Greenland Western settlement was almost as far from Eastern settlement along uninhabited coast as Vinland across Labrador Sea. It lasted over 3 centuries and never had 1000 souls. Erik the Red started in 986 with critical mass of 560 souls split between Eastern and Western settlement.

Maybe, then, the POD is no Western Settlement, but instead Vinland?

 

[Meshakhad]

I don't think a significantly larger "seed" for Vinland is plausible, so I'll focus on them working things out with the Skraelings.

In the short term, there would be some immigration from Europe to Vinland. The Norse would inevitably launch further expeditions, and would soon find that there were better lands to the south. But even with the attraction of new lands, the sheer distance would limit the flow. It wouldn't take long for locally-born Vinlanders to outnumber immigrants.

I agree that the idea of Vinland being anything but a nominal subject of a European king is implausible. The question is, what would the local government look like? I think the original Vinland colony would probably follow the Icelandic model, but I imagine that some adventurers might found kingdoms of their own elsewhere. And the Skraelings would quickly hit the Iron Age, so the Norse would lose their tech advantage.

The Little Ice Age would probably kill the Greenland colony sooner - the Greenlanders would probably choose to move to Vinland. There might still be a fishing outpost or two, possibly dominated by the Inuit rather than the Norse. This would probably cut off regular contact between Europe and Vinland, although there would still be the occasional ship making the crossing. Any nominal fealty would end.

Harder to figure out is the impact of Vinland on the Age of Exploration. I think that the slow spread of horses, iron, and some European diseases would have given the Native Americans a much better chance of holding off the Europeans. The question is, how far would that spread be?

 

[altwere]

I think that you are going to bet two spreading fronts to start off with. One will be down the Atlantic coast. There are lots of Islands in the Gulf of Maine and in Boston Harbor, many of which would make fine homesteads. Some in Maine are currently small fishing towns. One could even get holdings which consist of several small but close islands, to small to live on but fine for running sheep on in the summer and maybe to grow rye and turnips on.
The other spreading front would be up the St Lawrence into the Great Lakes and maybe down into Lake Champlain.
If you can get horses and maybe cattle as far as the great plains they will explode quickly.

 

[phildup]

All of that assumes you've got carpenters & ship riggers avaialble with sufficient skill. That last bit reminded me, they'd could really use ropemakers, sailmakers too, though some of that could be imported in need.

Seamen at this time were often adept at related skills such as sail-making, carpentry, joinery etc. The had to be since the likelihood of their being stranded on some alien shore was pretty good.