The Lion of St Mark: Venice and the Morean War
- Thread starter The Undead Martyr
- Start date
Seconded. The only way that Venice can play a the hands they have been dealt is to foment a revolt in Egypt, and support the rebels on the naval side (Cyprus and Crete are good basis to interdict naval convoys which would supply the Ottoman army, and with only land logistics, good luck in reaching Gaza and the door to Egypt
Egypt would probably break away a few decades earlier, and by the 19th century I expect venice to be about as powerful as the Dutch, and establish a protectorate over Egypt.
Algeria might be made a target sooner than that, perhaps before the *Napoleonic period. The Barbary States were a major thorn in the side of all the European powers and a resurgent Venice could in theory target them to put an end to the piracy; I imagine they would take a much more hands off approach than the French.
The Suez canal doesn't make sense prior to steamship technology.
Algeria might be made a target sooner than that, perhaps before the *Napoleonic period. The Barbary States were a major thorn in the side of all the European powers and a resurgent Venice could in theory target them to put an end to the piracy; I imagine they would take a much more hands off approach than the French.
The Suez canal doesn't make sense prior to steamship technology.
What about a revived Canal of the Pharaos? I found mention that merchants from Venice proposed the Mamluks to create the Canal as far back as 1504. If Venice manages to establish a protectorate over Egypt, might well try again-and maybe fail spectacularly, why not.
The Canal of the Pharoahs is a fairly expensive investment and not quite the same thing as the Suez. You really need steamships for the whole thing to be worthwhile, well unless you've got bucketloads of money and, like, an army of slaves or something to spend on prestige projects (this is how the Venetians managed it in the Visconti timeline). By the time Venice is in a position to assert control over egypt the technology will likely be moving towards steam travel regardless.
As a matter of fact, it is more a need of steam dredges to keep the Suez canal free of sand, but the point stands.
This doesn't mean that alternative solutions cannot be found: it would require transshipment of the goods between Mediterranean and Red sea, but it can work very well and would be faster than the traditional routes along the coast of Africa.
That is an interesting solution. Two "twin" ports, one on the Red Sea and one on the Mediterranean, plus control to the Eastern Med (and Malta) plus control on Egyptian politics and Venice can effectively boost it role on world trade without a major colonial Empire (or can build one, albeit small, I believe). I wonder if this can have a domino effect on the Terrafirma, too. Can they expand the Stato da Tera in order to get more manpower?
What Venice should really do, but unfortunately proved very resistant to in her 1000 years history, would be to make the inhabitants of the Stato de Mar and of the Terrafirma full Venetian citizens, and give them a full and equal stake in the governance of the Republic. I doubt very much that this might happen ITTL, as it did not happen IOTL (even the Republic of San Marco, born more than 50 years after the death of the Serenissima, fell prey of the same mindset). This is the great weakness, or better the original sin, of Venice, and what - ultimately - prevented her to become a major power.
Well, there's a Napoleon for that, barring butterflies of course. If Prussia and the Savoy could posture as the liberators of their nation then I see no reason that the Republic couldn't ape such a movement either, and/or be pressured into it by eg Milanese burghers
Alexandria/Damietta (probably Alexandria for sentimental reasons; she is the city of St Mark after all) and then Aqaba perhaps? Though perhaps Palestine would be a better target there, so Tyre or Acre and a friendly Egypt brought into a Veiled Protectorate; this of course depends on having the financial and military leverage that Britain did, but a state encompassing much or all of North Italy and key points in the Mediterranean could IMO have such leverage potentially.
Would Venice have the ability to expand into the Red Sea in the 18th century? Perhaps; their economy was rebounding towards the end of the period, and with a friendly Mamluk regime I can see inroads made into the Horn and Aden. Would Britain tolerate this is the better question to ask.
Napoleon will never be born with a POD so early, but the problem is how to wreak the Venetian mindset from the rut in which they have lived for centuries and centuries. Maybe a crisis in Terra Firma or Dalmatia (or both), or a serious revolt in Cyprus. I am thinking of something akin to a milder version of the Social Wars, and how they changed Rome. Otherwise, it might be the manpower demand (the more successful this Venice will be, the more they will find necessary to divert proto-industrial development to the mainland and recruit there soldiers (and sailors from Istria and Dalmatia). The best analogue in this case is England, and the growing use of Scotland and Ireland for manpower (and the formation of the United Kingdom too, which was not taken too well by Scots and Irish, at least at the beginning).
Alexandria is too large, maybe just a portion of the city might be handed over to Venice, same as they used to have in Constantinople or in most ports of eastern Mediterranean. In addition, Acre is certainly a great idea, and has also some sentimental value.
I'm pretty sure that Venice would be careful enough entering the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean, and even here Venice can find links with the past (there were Venetian envoys and gun makers in India at the beginning of the 16th century: at the time Venice was allied with both Mamelukes and Ottomans against the Portuguese). It's not really the UK per se they would be antagonizing, anyway, but rather the East India Company (and the VOC too, with their foothold in Java and their plantations), and the French in India. Farther east, there are still Portuguese and Spanish to deal with. Venice would be there for the trade, not certainly to set up a colonial empire, and they have always had pretty good diplomatic skills.
Venice is a place created by Roman refugees facing barbarian invasion of their homeland. While certainly the population was mixed by 1700, and heavily so, the idea of Venice’s uniqueness and founding purpose remained. I don’t see them giving out citizenship to non Venetians without extreme pressures.
An Italian Affair
Ottoman weakness plagued the government with instability and paralyzed the empire in the face of numerous internal and external enemies. Insurrection in Egypt wracked the province after the Great Turkish War, and by the 1720s the Mamluks were effectively independent in all but name, with Venice gaining commercial rights in the territory. With the rise of Nader Shah in 1736 the Ottomans faced a serious eastern threat, culminating in the loss of Baghdad to the Iranians in 1738. In Syria the capable Zadir al-Umar proclaimed independence, and with Venetian support succeeded in seizing control over much of Palestine and southern Syria. The ancient city of Acre became a Venetian colony in 1740 and the Tripolitanian sultanate comfortably settled into the role of a Venetian protectorate.
The Barbary States, nominal Turkish vassals, had been de facto closer to allies, and a constant thorn in the side of Catholic shipping. Spain had held the Algerian ports of Oran and Mers el Kebir since the beginning of the 16th century; with the outbreak of the succession crisis the Turks captured the cities, but these were taken by Venice during the Second Morean War. Both outposts were annexed along with Tripoli, but holding them proved costly. In the short term the Venetians turned to the Bernabotti, unmarried sons of the aristocracy otherwise denied a chance at gaining power, and began auctioning off state positions to cover the costs. The reforms of ended protectionist policies, and an end to the convoy system spurred shipbuilding. Venice’s newfound confidence led her to take a more assertive attitude on the continent, culminating in a military alliance with Victor Emmanuel of Sardinia aimed squarely at the Hapsburg empire.
The Duke of Savoy had long coveted Milan, but above all else he resented the Austrian claims to Tuscany, which by right of his wife Anna Maria Luisa, willed the duchy by her brother Gian Gastone in 1736[1]; this had been disregarded by Emperor Leopold Johan, who claimed the territory for himself, intending to use it as a bargaining chip in the broader contest with France.
Leopold’s arrogance proved exceedingly costly for the Habsburg dynasty. In 1733 King Augustus of Poland died, sparking a succession crisis. Russia, previously an Austrian ally, instead joined with France, backing the claims of Stanislaus in return for Livonia and Ruthenia. Although the Treaty of the Three Black Eagles saw Russia, Prussia, and Austria agree to oppose both Saxon and French candidate, all three quickly abandoned the terms, as Austria’s main goal had been to forestall a Franco-Saxon-Prussian alliance. Frederick William had already secured a double Hanover marriage over Habsburg objections, pairing his son Frederick with Amelia, threatening a grand northern Protestant bloc against the Emperor.
Victor Emmanuel proved a strikingly militant leader. Without waiting for French support he invaded Milan, rapidly securing control over the lightly defended duchy. In the east the Russians decisively defeated a Saxon army at the Battle of Warsaw, while the French spurred Bavaria and Spain to enter the war as well. In this context Venice received an offer from Savoy to join the alliance and partition the Habsburg territories between them. Venice had good reason to accept- aside from Albania and vestigial claims on Istria and Cremona, the Venetians resented Trieste’s new prominence as an Austrian free port, and hoped to seize the territory and secure control over Adriatic commerce. It was ultimately the Turkish victory over Austria in Macedonia which decided the issue- if Austria could no longer defeat the Turks then there was no benefit in maintaining an alliance with Vienna. Correspondingly Venice formally declared war on Austria in 1436, occupying Mantua, Trieste and the Trentino valley and successfully invading Albania. A Prussian army under Prince Frederick inflicted a shocking defeat over the Austrians in Silesia and overran the province. A Franco-Bavarian army captured Prague and Vienna was besieged in 1739. British mediation staved off total Austrian collapse, but otherwise their defeat was total- Bavaria annexed further Austria, Bohemia, Linz, and Tirol, excluding the territories south of the Brenner Pass. Stanislaus was installed as king of Poland, and Russia gained Kiev, Livonia, Estonia and protectorates over the Danubian principalities. Savoy and Venice partitioned Milan, with Venice gaining Mantua and Cremona as well as Istria and Victor Amadeus annexing the bulk of the territory along with Parma; the Bourbon duke was thereafter installed as King of Naples. Duke Leopold of Lorraine ceded his territory to France and was installed as Grand Duke of Tuscany while Spain regained Sicily.
[1]Victor Amadeus married differently, as noted previously; when the last Medici duke dies his nephew, TTL’s Duke of Savoy, is the heir. As OTL Maria Luisa’s rights are largely discounted by the great powers
Ottoman weakness plagued the government with instability and paralyzed the empire in the face of numerous internal and external enemies. Insurrection in Egypt wracked the province after the Great Turkish War, and by the 1720s the Mamluks were effectively independent in all but name, with Venice gaining commercial rights in the territory. With the rise of Nader Shah in 1736 the Ottomans faced a serious eastern threat, culminating in the loss of Baghdad to the Iranians in 1738. In Syria the capable Zadir al-Umar proclaimed independence, and with Venetian support succeeded in seizing control over much of Palestine and southern Syria. The ancient city of Acre became a Venetian colony in 1740 and the Tripolitanian sultanate comfortably settled into the role of a Venetian protectorate.
The Barbary States, nominal Turkish vassals, had been de facto closer to allies, and a constant thorn in the side of Catholic shipping. Spain had held the Algerian ports of Oran and Mers el Kebir since the beginning of the 16th century; with the outbreak of the succession crisis the Turks captured the cities, but these were taken by Venice during the Second Morean War. Both outposts were annexed along with Tripoli, but holding them proved costly. In the short term the Venetians turned to the Bernabotti, unmarried sons of the aristocracy otherwise denied a chance at gaining power, and began auctioning off state positions to cover the costs. The reforms of ended protectionist policies, and an end to the convoy system spurred shipbuilding. Venice’s newfound confidence led her to take a more assertive attitude on the continent, culminating in a military alliance with Victor Emmanuel of Sardinia aimed squarely at the Hapsburg empire.
The Duke of Savoy had long coveted Milan, but above all else he resented the Austrian claims to Tuscany, which by right of his wife Anna Maria Luisa, willed the duchy by her brother Gian Gastone in 1736[1]; this had been disregarded by Emperor Leopold Johan, who claimed the territory for himself, intending to use it as a bargaining chip in the broader contest with France.
Leopold’s arrogance proved exceedingly costly for the Habsburg dynasty. In 1733 King Augustus of Poland died, sparking a succession crisis. Russia, previously an Austrian ally, instead joined with France, backing the claims of Stanislaus in return for Livonia and Ruthenia. Although the Treaty of the Three Black Eagles saw Russia, Prussia, and Austria agree to oppose both Saxon and French candidate, all three quickly abandoned the terms, as Austria’s main goal had been to forestall a Franco-Saxon-Prussian alliance. Frederick William had already secured a double Hanover marriage over Habsburg objections, pairing his son Frederick with Amelia, threatening a grand northern Protestant bloc against the Emperor.
Victor Emmanuel proved a strikingly militant leader. Without waiting for French support he invaded Milan, rapidly securing control over the lightly defended duchy. In the east the Russians decisively defeated a Saxon army at the Battle of Warsaw, while the French spurred Bavaria and Spain to enter the war as well. In this context Venice received an offer from Savoy to join the alliance and partition the Habsburg territories between them. Venice had good reason to accept- aside from Albania and vestigial claims on Istria and Cremona, the Venetians resented Trieste’s new prominence as an Austrian free port, and hoped to seize the territory and secure control over Adriatic commerce. It was ultimately the Turkish victory over Austria in Macedonia which decided the issue- if Austria could no longer defeat the Turks then there was no benefit in maintaining an alliance with Vienna. Correspondingly Venice formally declared war on Austria in 1436, occupying Mantua, Trieste and the Trentino valley and successfully invading Albania. A Prussian army under Prince Frederick inflicted a shocking defeat over the Austrians in Silesia and overran the province. A Franco-Bavarian army captured Prague and Vienna was besieged in 1739. British mediation staved off total Austrian collapse, but otherwise their defeat was total- Bavaria annexed further Austria, Bohemia, Linz, and Tirol, excluding the territories south of the Brenner Pass. Stanislaus was installed as king of Poland, and Russia gained Kiev, Livonia, Estonia and protectorates over the Danubian principalities. Savoy and Venice partitioned Milan, with Venice gaining Mantua and Cremona as well as Istria and Victor Amadeus annexing the bulk of the territory along with Parma; the Bourbon duke was thereafter installed as King of Naples. Duke Leopold of Lorraine ceded his territory to France and was installed as Grand Duke of Tuscany while Spain regained Sicily.
[1]Victor Amadeus married differently, as noted previously; when the last Medici duke dies his nephew, TTL’s Duke of Savoy, is the heir. As OTL Maria Luisa’s rights are largely discounted by the great powers
Short and overdue, but I really can't think of any timeline dealing with a "Habsburggedon" in the 18th century. Even without Maria Theresa inheriting the Habsburgs have too many enemies. Of course the situation in Europe is far from stable, as IMHO the Franco-Spanish-Bavarian axis is likely to either split or face its own British backed coalition.
Admittedly I have to wonder whether France would gain more- specifically the Low Countries, maybe Savoy. Alternately Spain could get Tuscany and the Bourbons both Sicilies.
Admittedly I have to wonder whether France would gain more- specifically the Low Countries, maybe Savoy. Alternately Spain could get Tuscany and the Bourbons both Sicilies.
And the Winged Lion roars again. 
There is a couplet in Venetian dialect which is quite appropriate to the occasion:
"Quando il leon svalza la coa / Tuti i altri besti sbasa la soa"
In English it would be something like:
"When the lion raises his tail / all other beasts submit without fail"
There is a couplet in Venetian dialect which is quite appropriate to the occasion:
"Quando il leon svalza la coa / Tuti i altri besti sbasa la soa"
In English it would be something like:
"When the lion raises his tail / all other beasts submit without fail"