The Knights Templar survive

So I'm planning a timeline where one of Louis IX of Frances older brothers survives and becomes king. One of the knock on consewuences of this is that there is no drive to remove and destroy the templars. My question is this, how long could the templars survive for? How would they deal with a reformation? And what other consequences could there be if their survival?
 
well, depending on who you talk to, they're still around today XD more seriously, i could see the Templars lasting through to the present-day, but not as a chivalric military order--they'd instead be bankers (that was basically their thing, and possibly part of why they were purged IOTL--the King of France was in too much debt to them :p ) possibly with a shared fraternal organization similar to the Freemasons

incidentally, the Freemasons themselves claim descent from the Templars as an organization iirc, so you could look into them for ideas
 
Oh interesting that's quite fascinating. Would they adapt to any changes in religion in whatever country they were in then?
 
They either need to reform à la Knights of Malta, or be destroyed. The Pope had very little use for Holy Orders after all the Crusading was done, and would rather be rid of them. If the Templars would keep doing their usual Templar stuff, they would eventually become such a nuisance that either a King, or the Pope would make sure they get eliminated
 
They either need to reform à la Knights of Malta, or be destroyed. The Pope had very little use for Holy Orders after all the Crusading was done, and would rather be rid of them. If the Templars would keep doing their usual Templar stuff, they would eventually become such a nuisance that either a King, or the Pope would make sure they get eliminated
Very true. Reforming into a banking system would be quite
Interesting or as legal counsel
 
Reforming as large-scale moneylenders would be interesting - and might open up new avenues to complete their 'mission'.

If they also perform money-lending in the Muslim world, they can make quite a healthy bit of bank. If they use this to establish offices and chapels in Christendom and beyond, then they can be very useful to the Pope (at least later on). Christian Banker-Priests (the idea is hilariously hypocritical, but run with me), that can negotiate small chapels and offices in the Muslim world can perform charity with the money they make to help convert locals. - This makes them a soft-power tool for the Pope to expand Christendom. This also means that even if the Pope orders Christian monarchs to arrest Templars, they have the Muslim world to go to, and can continue their lending and proselytising with the local rulers permission.

AFAIK I don't think there was anything like this taking place, but there is a bit of humour in a religion that outright despises lending in the Temple, using banking and lending to fund the construction of temples and the conversion of Jerusalem.
 
What's odd is how Philip the Fair got all the Kings to play along in destroying the Templars. WI Philip fails, in that one or more Christian King flat out refuses to cooperate, and Templars continue operating as Templars?
 
Well technically they did survive. In Portugal the King simply created a new order, the Order of Christ, and made all the Templars and their possessions to be transferred to the new order.
 
A mass banking system would be fascinating but could that not strengthen some accusations of corruption if indeed the Protestant movement develops?
 
I just thought of another fringe possibility for the Templars to survive as a holy order. And that would be to sell out to the muslims. The problem is that there would be very few muslim states at the time that would either see a use for having a Christian Holy order under their command, and even fewer that would be acceptable for the Templars to join.
The only valid candidate would be the Ottomans once they capture or are about to capture Jerusalem, but that'd be a long period of time the Templars would need to manage and not be destroyed in.
If they did manage to survive up untill then, maybe, just maybe they'll start working with the relatively Pro-Christian Ottomans in exchange for getting to manage Christian Holy sites in the Levant. This would however mean that the Ottomans can't give these sites to the Orthodox Christians, which would give the Turks a less strong relation with the Church as in OTL, and all they'd get in return would be a semi-loyal Christian Holy Order, that may go back to their original business of fightiing against Islam at any moment.
So if the Turks were to ally the Templars (an allready unlikely possibility) they would certainly do away with them as soon as the threat of the Mamluks would be gone, and the Ottomans would have no use for a group of infidel zealots that help defend the Holy Land, as they would be a bigger risk than they're worth.

So basicly there would be no way for the Templars to continue their existance as a Holy order up to the reformation, no matter what they'll try.
If they stick around in the Christian world, they will be wiped out by any Pope or King that has the power and reason to do so,
and if they switch allegiance, they'll just end up betrayed once they become a liability.

A holy order is allways a liability, in the Christian world too, that's why they were eventually destroyed in our timeline, and it's what will happen in any other timeline as well
 
Ironically they would need to get away from the political/economical focus and redirect themselves toward fighting ''infidels'' to gain protection from the church. Because OTL, they became useless to the church so when the king of France decided to disband them for their money, nobody lifted a finger. So maybe a pope meet one of the Great master and make him understand that unless they send soldiers to help with the reconquista, they will disband them. So the Templar keeps their banking system to finance a fighting branch in Iberia.
 
There were many talks of fusion between Hospitallers and Templars in the late 13th c. and early 14th c. and eventually, the Hospitallers inherited almost all of the Templars' estates. If the Templars had agree to such a papal plan prior to the 1310', they may have survived in a new "order of the Temple of Our Lord and of The Hospital of Saint John in Jerusalem", commonly known as "The Templars". But given the stubborn attitude of OTL Templars when given the choice to join the Hospitallers, it would require a very massive PoD.

People nowadays have a false idea of the medieval Church being a single united and untouchable block, but it certainly was not the case. While the authority of the Church hierarchy in doctrinal questions was not to be questioned, the uses of the various religious orders and houses were frequently criticized and even their own existence attacked.
 
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@caliph I would certainly not label the Ottomans as pro Christian.

Also, the Ottomans had no issue with the Burji until the early 1500s an were infact allies for most of the 1400s. The Burji infact granted permissions for the Ottoman invasion of Europe and wrote them vivid poetry congratulating them in the 'conquest of Rum'.

As well there is no time before the reformation for the Ottomans to make a move on the Burji. In the 1300s, Burji and Ottomans were staunch allies and in some ways were considered the same nation. Timur at this time was the main threat to both states and any disorder between the Burji and Ottoman would lead to the destruction of one of them by Timur. The only thing that kept this from happening otl was the Burji and Ottomans opposing Timur, mostly in vain as Timur forced the Burji to peace and then of course severely damaged the Ottomans.
 
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@caliph I would certainly not label the Ottomans as pro Christian.

Also, the Ottomans had no issue with the Burji until the early 1500s an were infact allies for most of the 1400s. The Burji infact granted permissions for the Ottoman invasion of Europe and wrote them vivid poetry congratulating them in the 'conquest of Rum'.

As well there is no time before the reformation for the Ottomans to make a move on the Burji. In the 1300s, Burji and Ottomans were staunch allies and in some ways were considered the same nation. Timur at this time was the main threat to both states and any disorder between the Burji and Ottoman would lead to the destruction of one of them by Timur. The only thing that kept this from happening otl was the Burji and Ottomans opposing Timur, mostly in vain as Timur forced the Burji to peace and then of course severely damaged the Ottomans.

The Ottomans would start being far less friendly with the Mamluks in the period following their conquest of Constantinople.
That would also be the moment after which they would be at least able to consider partnering with the Templars, as the conquest of Constantinople meant the transformation of the Empire to a partly Christian state, as the sultan was crowned both Sultan of the Turks (muslims) as he was Caesar of Rum ( the Christians)
After that they'd quickly expand in all directions, and soon butt heads with the Mamluks
 
The Ottomans would start being far less friendly with the Mamluks in the period following their conquest of Constantinople.
That would also be the moment after which they would be at least able to consider partnering with the Templars, as the conquest of Constantinople meant the transformation of the Empire to a partly Christian state, as the sultan was crowned both Sultan of the Turks (muslims) as he was Caesar of Rum ( the Christians)
After that they'd quickly expand in all directions, and soon butt heads with the Mamluks

Qaysar was not a term that denoted commadership of Christians in such a definitive light. The title within Islam that gives a Muslim ruler control over Christians is the title; Amir al-Mu'minin commander of the faithful.

The issue is that the Templars will already be extinct by the time the Ottomans look to rethink their cordial relation with the Burji.

We even see this in Ottoman letters to foreign leaders, they do not use Qaysae but Amr al-Mu'minin to compel the kaffir or Muslim to submit.
 
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Here's an interesting notion: the Templars stick around as holy bankers long enough for the New World to be discovered, at which point they think "Well, the Teutons did well fighting the pagans of Eastern Europe, so how about we go fight pagans in the New World?"

With their money from banking and Papal support, they could establish an independent colony in the New World, one that might grow into a true nation, given time.
 
Here's an interesting notion: the Templars stick around as holy bankers long enough for the New World to be discovered, at which point they think "Well, the Teutons did well fighting the pagans of Eastern Europe, so how about we go fight pagans in the New World?"

With their money from banking and Papal support, they could establish an independent colony in the New World, one that might grow into a true nation, given time.
that actually seems like a possibility. But I doubt that the Spanish and Portuguese would be glad to help the Templars go conquer land in America that they may want for themselves. Given that they would doubt the loyalty of the Templars, given that the Poles seemed to be wrong with trusting the Teutons. And I;d be really hard to launch a Crusade across an ocean, and later on settle the area without the help of a nation that has holdings nearby
 
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