The Kingdom of Batavia

Flame

Banned
The "Kingdom of Batavia" is a project which I've been working on for a while now. It's my first timeline, so please be nice and I'm posting a four-chapter OTL introduction first since I doubt that many here know much about the given subject. Well anyways, please give it a read and give your feedback (I'll post the start of the timeline in the second update).


Introduction (OTL)

The Year of the Four Emperors:

The sixty-ninth year after the birth of Christ was the year of the four emperors, when the acting emperor of the Rome was switched four times after the death of Caesar Nero Claudius. His first replacement as emperor was Galba, the second one was Otho, the third emperor being Vitellius and the last one being Vespasian.

In early 68, the governor of Gallia Lugdunensis, Caius Julius Vindex, rebelled against the unpopular Nero after a new tax policy had been made, declaring that governor Servius Sulpicius Galba should be the new emperor. Vindex’ rebellion was quickly put down by Roman legions from Germania Inferior and officially ended when Caius Julius Vindex killed himself. By June of 68 AD, the senate had enough of Nero and again Galba was declared the new emperor and Nero was declared a public enemy of Rome.

The legions that destroyed Vindex’ rebellion were punished for “obstructing” Galba’s path to emperor and their commander, Lucius Verginius Rufus, was replaced by the new emperor. Aulus Vitellius was appointed the new governor of Germania Inferior (present day Belgium, Luxembourg and the southern half of the Netherlands), causing the Roman Legions in Germania Inferior to lose loyalty to the new emperor as well as causing the local Germanic populace to feel insulted by the loss of political confidence in their people. The Batavians, a sub-tribe of the Chatti that lived in Germania Inferior, known to be the fiercest barbarian warriors by the Romans, even had their Imperial Batavian Bodyguard disbanded.

Galba did not remain popular for long with the people of the Empire, destroying and taking fines from towns that did not accept him as the new emperor. Galba was a paranoid leader and constantly thought that people were plotting to overthrow him, therefore he had many of his political rivals executed. Galba also refused to give rewards to the legions that supported his ascension to power, causing him to become unpopular within the ranks of the army as well. In early 69 a civil war erupted when the legions of Germania Inferior refused to swear allegiance to the new emperor, declaring their governor, Aulus Vitellius, as the new emperor.

Galba was killed by his own Praetorian guard and an ambitious, powerful man, Marcus Salvius Otho, was declared emperor by the senate the same day that Galba died. Even though Otho was not known to be tyrannical or cruel, and was expected to be a fair leader, Vitellius’ legions from Germania Inferior were marching to Italy to seize Rome for Vitellius. Otho, not wanting to start another civil war, sent emissaries to negotiate for peace with Vitellius. It was too late for peace however and Otho’s legions were defeated by the combat-hardened veterans from Vitellius’ legions. Otho then committed suicide rather than fleeing, leaving Vitellius’ as the new emperor.

After Otho committed suicide Vitellius was recognized as the new emperor by the Roman senate. After having tightly secured his position of power, Vitellius held feasts, banquets and parades that left him nearly bankrupt; eventually Vitellius was forced to borrow money. When money lenders started to demand their repayment, Vitellius had them, as well as his political rivals and citizens that opposed him, killed.

Meanwhile in Germania Inferior, the Batavian tribe declared their independence after a high ranking Batavian was executed by the Romans after false charges of rebellion. The Batavians were led by an angry Gaius Julius Civilis, a Batavian Roman citizen whose brother had been executed, and who himself had been falsely accused and imprisoned on charges of betrayal and rebellion twice.

Not long after Vitellius was declared emperor, troops from the provinces of Iudaea, Aegyptus and Syria declared Titus Flavius Vespasianus (Vespasian) the new emperor of Rome. Vespasian was a man who held exclusive military power given to him by Emperor Nero to put down the Jewish revolt. Supported by governors from the Middle-Eastern territories, Vespasian quickly sent an army to seize Rome for himself.



About the Batavians:

The Batavians were a truly unique people from a relatively small tribe (40,000 members approximately), that settled south of the Rhine in the modern day Netherlands, living in small settlements composed of 6-20 houses with Roman fortresses looking over them and with an oppidum (storehouse) in modern day Nijmegen. The Batavian people made their food by cattle-herding and farming, living around riverbeds and swamps that provided them with wet and fertile soil.

The Batavians were originally a pro-Roman part of the Chatti tribe that was forced to leave by the anti-Roman part of the tribe. The Batavians settled down in a small fertile island in modern day Gelderland called “the Betuwe” (meaning “Good Island”); this is one of the reasons why they might have been called “Batavi”.

Instead of paying their taxes to the Romans with coins, the Batavians paid them in soldiers, supplying eight auxiliary cohorts as well as well as several cavalry units (and the disbanded Imperial Batavian Bodyguard) at any given time.

Most of the written information about the Batavians came from the Historiae novels by the Roman historian Gaius Tacticus, who stated that they were the bravest and toughest warriors in all of Germania, being skilled horsemen, boatmen, swimmers as well as superb infantry. The Batavians proved themselves to the Romans in Britannia by serving as amphibious units, aiding the Romans greatly. The first historical report that mentions the Batavians was in the time of Emperor Tiberius when Batavian soldiers aided his army and fought against an army commanded by Arminius himself.

The Batavians were a peaceful tribe that only fought under the Romans (if not against them). The warlike part of their culture can be traced all the way back to the foundation of their tribe, as they claimed to be descended from the Greek hero “Herakles” (Hercules), who supposedly visited the Betuwe during his travels.

Like many Germanic tribes under the Rhine, the Batavians were heavily influenced by the Celts, causing a debate amongst historians whether they should be classified as Germanic or Celtic since they truly had a blend of both cultures. The native tongue of the general Batavian populace was either a local Celtic or Germanic language, although many Batavians were fluent and literate in Latin, due to the fact that every capable male had to serve in the Roman army after becoming 16 years of age.



The Barbarian Uprising:

Meanwhile in Germania Inferior, Gaius Julius Civilis, who also was the commander of Batavian Roman auxiliary cohorts, was looking for a way to distract the Romans. After meeting Brino, the chief of the Cananefates (a neighboring tribe of the Batavians), Civilis convinced him to join their rebellion as well. Soon after the meeting, Cananefatean warriors started attacking Roman forts. The Romans, now fighting in a civil war between Vitellius and Vespasian, were low on manpower and sent a few local auxiliary units to put down the rebellion. The auxiliary units were quickly massacred by Batavian soldiers led by Julius Civilis, who then assumed the position of leader of the Batavians as well as the leader of their new found rebellion.

Infuriated by the defeat of his troops, Flaccus, the supreme commander of the military in Germania Inferior, sent the V Alaudae and the XV Primigenia legions to destroy the Germanics. The two legions were accompanied by three Batavian cavalry units who deserted the Roman army for their own countrymen, lowering the already low morale of the Roman troops. The two Roman legions confronted the small Batavian army by the Oppidum Batavorum (Batavian Storehouse) where the tribe’s treasury was stored. The Romans suffered a crushing defeat and were forced to retreat out of the now Batavian-claimed lands.

Vespasian, fighting a civil war against Vitellius for the position of Roman emperor considered himself blessed by the Germanic rebellion since the rebellion kept Vitellius’ most loyal troops from returning home. Vespasian thus saluted the rebellion and promised the Batavians their independence if he were to become emperor. Civilis used this to justify the rebellion in the eyes of the general Roman populace, saying that the Batavians were fighting for Vespasian against Vitellius’ troops.

After the V Alaudae and the XV Primigenia retreated to the Roman fortress of Castra Vetera, Civilis chose to pursue them and laid siege to the fortress. Castra Vetera was a very well supplied, modern fortress that was nearly impregnable, so Civilis decided to starve out the Roman troops.

On the 21st of December 69, Vespasian won the civil war and was declared the new emperor of Rome. The Romans expected the Batavians to lift the siege now that Vespasian was the new emperor. Julius Civilis however did not care about Vespasian; Civilis cared only about Batavia, a soon to be independent kingdom. Flaccus, now with an actual emperor to serve, start preparing an army to defeat the Batavians besieging Castra Vetera. Civilis however was not going to wait for the Romans to attack, and therefore sent eight cavalry units to ambush the army. When the eight units attacked the Roman army they were completely obliterated. The cavalry units did serve their purpose however, causing enormous losses of man power as well as morale on the Roman army, leaving it a disorganized, fractured wreck.

Knowing that the weakened Roman army (led by Flaccus) would come to liberate Castra Vetera, Civilis abandoned the siege and threatened to attack Moguntiacum, causing the Flaccus to rush his troops there. Upon reaching the unharmed Moguntiacum, Flaccus and his troops went back to Castra Vetera and celebrated the accession of the new emperor Vespasian as well as the liberation of Castra Vetera. Flaccus distributed sums of money to his army for the celebration. The troops however were historically loyal to Vitellius, the former governor of Germania Inferior and took Flaccus’ act of generosity as an offense. Flaccus was murdered by his troops and his second in command deserted his post. With the whole Roman army trapped in Castra Vetera weakened, fractured and confused by its lack of leadership, Civilis saw his chance and attacked it once more.

The legions now helpless were promised a safe escape if they abandoned the fortress and left it to be plundered by the Batavians. The now desperate Roman soldiers accepted Civilis’ terms and surrendered Castra Vetera. Once the Roman army was a few kilometers away from the fortress it was ambushed by other local Germanic troops and was completely annihilated. The Batavians were now freshly armed with all the equipment, weapons and gold left in the fortress of Castra Vetera as well as the gold from the Oppidum Batavorum and a local Roman palace.

In the early part of year 70, things were looking good for Civilis, now reinforced with the eight auxiliary units that had abandoned Vitellius’ army, had dozens of local Germanic allies that had also joined the rebellion. The rebellion even spread to Gaul, with the Trevirans and the Lingones being the first Celtic tribes to declare their independence. Led by Julius Sabinus, the Celts were able to capture two local Roman legions. Soon dozens of other Gallic tribes joined the rebellion, resulting in a complete “barbarian uprising” across Gaul and Germania.



The Fall of the Rebellion:

The barbarian uprisings in Germania and Gaul now posed a serious threat to the Roman Empire. Consequently once Vespasian had the situation in Rome under control, he sent a massive army to crush the rebellion once and for all. Seven legions assembled from all across the Empire and led by Quintus Petillius Cerialiswere sent: the VIII Augusta, the XI Claudia, the XIII Gemina, the XXI Rapax, the II Adiutrix, the VI Victrix and the XIV Gemina. On the news of the approaching army, many tribes in Gaul surrendered (those Frenchies) and the two Roman legions captured by the Celts were released. Several former Germanic allies of Julius Civilis declared their neutrality, leaving only a few tribes in Germania Inferior still fighting the Romans.

Civilis was now desperate, as he was facing one of the biggest armies the Romans had ever assembled with only a small elite army, a small fleet and a few allies. Civilis sent his men to raid the approaching Romans but these minor raids had little effect on the massive army. His men on water were more successful however; capturing the Roman flagship. After hearing about the humiliating loss, Quintus Petillius Cerialis directly invaded the Betuwe. Upon hearing that the Jewish rebellion was over and thus more legions might be coming their way, Civilis made a wise decision and surrendered to the Romans, avoiding mayor bloodshed.

Once all the local tribes had surrendered the Romans renewed their “deal” with Batavians. For safety measures the Romans burned the biggest Batavian city by the Oppidum Batavorum and relocated it to a defenceless spot. The Romans also stationed the X Gemina legion by the Betuwe to ensure peace. The fate of Julius Civilis, the patriot and mastermind behind the rebellion, is unknown, although it is believed that after the rebellion was over he settled in the independent Germanic territories north of his own tribe (Frisia).
 
So the POD is Civilis survives to try again? I just read up on this era and being of Dutch descent, I'm fascinated with the area and the Batavii are definitely a fascinating part of Dutch history.:D
 

Flame

Banned
So the POD is Civilis survives to try again? I just read up on this era and being of Dutch descent, I'm fascinated with the area and the Batavii are definitely a fascinating part of Dutch history.:D

Well, he could go and rally up some tribes in Frisia and try to start a new rebellion, which is possible, but highly unlikely. What I'm going to is that Civilis negotiates for peace with Vespasian, who was not an unhonorable man, and according to Tacticus, he had promised the Batavian tribe their independence if they were to help defeat Vitellius, which they did. And glad that your interested, and yeah, Dutch history, especially the Batavians and the 17th century, are extremely interesting.

I'm looking forward to this one. Subscribed. :D

Great :)
 

Flame

Banned
Chapter 1: The Negotiations by Gaius Cornelius Tacticus.


On the 21st of December, 69, Titus Flavius Vespasianus was declared the ninth emperor of Rome and started his reign facing several problems such as the Batavian and Jewish rebellions as well as many power-hungry politicians wanting the position of emperor for themselves. Vespasian however was a fairly decent man, and a fairly decent politician, and he had secured his position well, he was going to stay emperor for a long time, I am sure of it.

When word of Vespasian’s ascension to throne reached Germania Inferior the Romans there were unsure what was going to happen, would the fighting stop, or would the Germanics continue their rebellion? It was all up to one man, Gaius Julius Civilis, acting leader of the Batavian tribe. The people of Rome assumed that the fighting would stop since Julius Civilis was a more civilized barbarian, and he was fighting for Vespasian after all, at least that was what he had said.

However, much to the relief of the Romans, the Batavians lifted the siege of Castra Vetera and negotiated a truce with the soldiers inside the fortress, as the high command of the Batavians said that they would not attack the Romans until Julius Civilis’ negotiations with Vespasian had been concluded, negotiations which could be very bad for the men trapped in Castra Vetera, or very good.

After a few good-hearted letters had been sent between Julius Civilis and Flavius Vespasianus, the Batavians and other important Germanics from Germania Inferiorian had received invitations to visit Rome, and had received permission to speak with the emperor himself.

When the Germanic men met the gracious emperor Vespasian inside his palace upon Palatine Hill, they supposedly negotiated the territory and people ceded from the Empire, as before mentioned in my other literature, the Germanic peoples had no actual borders or official documenting stating from which tribe they were, so it was a long and difficult discussion, but it said that on the second day, negotiations had been concluded and the Batavian and Canenefatean people would receive their independence from the Empire and together form a sovereign state. After a little bit of discussion between the Germanic leaders and the Romans present, it was decided that Julius Civilis, the mighty Batavian general, would become the king of the new territory, and that the kingdom would be named Batavia. Interestingly enough, the soon-to-be king of Batavia and the Emperor of Rome got along well with each other, and vowed that Rome and Batavia would stay in good relations with each other.

A few days after the meeting was over, the Germanics left Rome and headed back towards Germania Inferior. Later that week emperor Vespasian announced to the plebs that that his “barbarian allies” who helped him defeat Vitellius will be rewarded with their own kingdom and surprisingly enough, this was well received with the mob, who romanticized the story and spoke proudly of their new Germanic allies, who could of predicted such an interesting turn of events?

.

Batavian Territory.jpg
 
Last edited:

Flame

Banned
Sorry for the update coming so late (if you or anyone was following it specificly), I had hit writer's block as I had debated with myself to make it a narrative by Tacticus, a story as with dialogue and characters, or just time-lineals posts.

Any comments and criticism are much appreciated, and if you think this story line is not possible, tell me so, and I'll explain to you why it is possible. ;)
 

Flame

Banned
I think its perfectly plausible. Where are the Batavians going to go from here?

Since Julius Civilis had lived in Rome for many years, and was greatly impressed with Hellenstic civilization, I think that he'll start "romanizing" his new land, the rest is a secret :)
 

Flame

Banned
Chapter 2: The Kingdom of Batavia by Gaius Cornelius Tacticus.

It was said that when Julius Civilis and his company arrived back in Germania Inferior they were welcomed back as heroes and huge feasts of legendary proportions were held in every town, and that the Germanics celebrated their independence for several days straight, rumor even had it that you could not find a sober man or woman in all of Batavia. And even though the two tribes were not organized, word spread quickly from village to village, and no settlement was left behind in the feasting.

When the feasting was finally over it was arranged that Julius Civilis was to be crowned king on the 17th of January, and it was said that the 9th of January would be remembered as the independence day of the Batavians.

It was said that every man, woman and child was invited to the coronation, which was to be held in Oppidum Batavorum. At the cornonation it was said that Civilis was crowned by Brinno, the ex-chieftain of the Canenefates, as a sign of his loyalty and friendship. After the coronation was over Julius Civilis had to refered to as King (Rex) Civilis I (of the Kingdom of Batavia). After the coronation was over it was said that everyone but Civilis and his generals feasted, as they had work to do.

I have received a list from a soldier who received this information from his captain, who received it from his general, who received it from the emperor Vespasian himself. The list contains the information that Civilis had written down and told the emperor about, the list was a thing that Civilis wanted to accomplish in his new kingdom, mainly dealing with infrastructure. I have taken the liberty of making a summary of the contents of the list and I have written it below:

-It was said that he wanted to organize his people, and that he wanted a to create a way to identify every person in his new Kingdom, so that one would know that the stranger was actually a Batavian citizen.

-He also wanted borders to be established with the other tribes, so that his people and foreign people would not get mingled.

-He also wanted more and better roads made, and more bridges to be made across the many rivers and swamps in his kingdom, he wanted that every town would be able to easily reach another.

-It was said that one of the more curious things Civilis wanted done was maps to be made, maps that would show the borders of the kingdom, and what towns were or were not a part of the kingdom.

-He also wanted the limes (Roman fortifications) at the Rhine to be removed, and to store the wood for future constructions.

-Lastly, he wanted laws and a government to be formed, a government based on the Roman government, he decided that the government would be seated in Oppidum Batavorum, which was to going to be renamed Batavia and was going to be the capital of his kingdom.

As you can see, there were many things the king wanted to accomplish during his reign, these things are not unaccomplishable feats however, and for a Batavian man educated like a Roman, it should be easy.
 
Last edited:
-It was said that he wanted to organize his people, and that he wanted a to create a parchment of personal identification for every person in his new Kingdom, so that one would know that the stranger was actually a Batavian citizen.
-He also wanted borders to be established with the other tribes, so that his people and foreign people would not get mingled.
-He also wanted more and better roads made, and more bridges to be made across the many rivers in his kingdom, he wanted that every town would be able to easily reach another.
-It was said that one of the more curious things Civilis wanted done was maps to be made, many, many maps, and to have them put in every town, maps that would show the borders of the kingdom, and what towns were not part of the kingdom.

I don't know what you have in mind with those identity cards, but I think that this is probably unfeasible in Rome at the time and even more so in a Germanic tribe. What could be done, however, are requirements considering clothing, helmets, wearing swords of certain styles, wearing certain colours and the like to differentiate Batavians from outsiders.

Considering roads and bridges, the problem will be that the Bataivians will have no idea about how to do that. Maybe Civilis could simply ask the Romans to extend his roads? Or at least sent him pioneers to do so? After all, as a close Roman ally, he has to defend the Empire and anything which facilitates this would help the Empire. Nevertheless, I doubt that it will be possible to build bridges over the various Rhine arms. Furthermore, I fear that those Rhine arms change locations frequently, thus your bridges may be useless. Maybe Civilis should invests in a fleet rather than roads and bridges?

Finally, considering maps, I don't know whether Roman maps provide the information you want them to provide. First, those maps to not show the exact perspective. Second, probably only a minority of his subjects is able to read at all. Not to speak of the ability to read a map...

Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to further developments here!
 
Yeah, this sounds great, but it simply is to modern. As has been said, as I was going to say had Monty Burns it not said, is that good infrastructure in the Netherlands would be very hard to build at such a time. You need thousands of bridges to start with, an then everything changes (rivers expand or decrease in size, the seas overflow the land (or however you say that i nEnglish), etcetera), and you can begin again. And identification wouldn't be accepted by the people I think, but color code would (it was already used (by some) after all). And maps are very undetailed and thus not usefull (look at some maps of that time), and people won't be able to read them. Of course, if they begin to semi-accurately map the lands and teach people how to read a map, then in a few years / decades / whatever it will be usefull (but not much). Your ideas are a great start for some kind of revolution or the prevention of the dark ages or whatever though.
 

Flame

Banned
I don't know what you have in mind with those identity cards, but I think that this is probably unfeasible in Rome at the time and even more so in a Germanic tribe. What could be done, however, are requirements considering clothing, helmets, wearing swords of certain styles, wearing certain colours and the like to differentiate Batavians from outsiders.

Considering roads and bridges, the problem will be that the Bataivians will have no idea about how to do that. Maybe Civilis could simply ask the Romans to extend his roads? Or at least sent him pioneers to do so? After all, as a close Roman ally, he has to defend the Empire and anything which facilitates this would help the Empire. Nevertheless, I doubt that it will be possible to build bridges over the various Rhine arms. Furthermore, I fear that those Rhine arms change locations frequently, thus your bridges may be useless. Maybe Civilis should invests in a fleet rather than roads and bridges?

Finally, considering maps, I don't know whether Roman maps provide the information you want them to provide. First, those maps to not show the exact perspective. Second, probably only a minority of his subjects is able to read at all. Not to speak of the ability to read a map...

Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to further developments here!

Well, I wasn't planning on just making identity cards, but I read that some Romans, the higher classes especially, did have parchments that served like ID cards do today. Julius Civilis lived in Rome for nearly his whole adult life, and was an optemist to say the least. I'm simply trying to get things organized, and by saying what he wanted, doesn't mean it will happen :p And thanks for the ideas, I will consider them.

You seem to underestimate the Batavians, they were a fully Romanized Germanic tribe, almost all of them lived in Roman made towns, like I mentioned in the first post, many of them even spoke Latin. And yes, I was planning on getting Romans to help them in return for military service.

And for the bridges over the Rhine, you have a valid point, but it's not just the Rhine, it is a very watery, swampy land, and I was more refering to improving the way of traveling. Civilis did have a fleet, but I can't imagine his soldiers ferrying around civilian.

You've got to realize that every man served in the Roman army for atleast a decade so many of them could read maps, Civilis himself was a general, and he liked things organized and was especially fond of Roman culture, and even though he loved the tribes, he thought they were chaotic. And the point of maps were that many of the citizens lived in little settlements and towns all over the place, therefore Civilis would like to put them on a map. And there were Romans maps of Germania Inferior with the limes and fortresses, so it is possible.

I appreciate your concerns and criticism, and I will try to improve what you've suggested, but you've got to realize, I will cover all those points in the future, and those things were merely things Civilis would like to do.
 
Last edited:

Flame

Banned
Yeah, this sounds great, but it simply is to modern. As has been said, as I was going to say had Monty Burns it not said, is that good infrastructure in the Netherlands would be very hard to build at such a time. You need thousands of bridges to start with, an then everything changes (rivers expand or decrease in size, the seas overflow the land (or however you say that i nEnglish), etcetera), and you can begin again. And identification wouldn't be accepted by the people I think, but color code would (it was already used (by some) after all). And maps are very undetailed and thus not usefull (look at some maps of that time), and people won't be able to read them. Of course, if they begin to semi-accurately map the lands and teach people how to read a map, then in a few years / decades / whatever it will be usefull (but not much). Your ideas are a great start for some kind of revolution or the prevention of the dark ages or whatever though.

I never said it would happen, I only said Civilis would like it to happen. And with more bridges and roads, I just meant the occasional bridge here and there and more paved roads so that communication would be easier. And judging how Vespasian and Civilis did get along with eachother, Roman help is quite possible. And the point of the maps was just to find the hundreds of petite little settlements all over the place, and like I said to Monty_Burns, many could read maps because every man was a soldier.

And thank you, I'm thinking of Civilis to take the Armenius approach and unite many tribes, but that will come up in future updates.
 
Last edited:
Well, I wasn't planning on just making identity cards, but I read that Romans, especially the higher classes, did have parchments that served like ID cards do today.

Never heart of that until now - I was just remembering my old Latin classes in school, where we translated some texts in which it was described how Romans frequently required witnesses to prove their identity. After all, the problem is that identity cards with the technology of the time can easily be copied and, even if the Batavians were more civilized than their Germanic neighbours, functioning identity cards require bureaucracy to give them out and to control them continuously. One must be able to trace back the origin of the card, for example.

Julius Civilis lived in Rome for nearly his whole adult life, and was an optemist to say the least. I'm simply trying to get things organized, and by saying what he wanted, doesn't mean it will happen :p

Point taken. :)

And for the bridges over the Rhine, you have a valid point, but it's not just the Rhine, it is a very watery, swampy land, and I was more refering to improving the way of traveling. Civilis did have a fleet, but I can't imagine his soldiers ferrying around civilian.

OK, you've got a point again. Certainly, there will be possibilities to imrpove infrastructure in general. Nevertheless, I think organized ferries, a military river fleet and an organized, water-based poastal service could provide very modern infrastructure at rather low costs.

You've got to realize that every man served in the Roman army for atleast a decade so many of them could read maps excellently,

I someqhat doubt that. Servie in an army does not necessarily imply that ordinary ranks can read maps - or read at all. And I'm not sure in what way Romans used maps at all. The maps I know simply connect - without any realistic depiction - cities by lines along which the days required to travel between those cities is denoted. There's no possibility in using those maps in actual orientation.

Nevertheless, you have a point that at least some Batavians had higher ranks in the Roman army and actually could read and were decently educated in all military things including orientation - although I doubt that maps would be a large part of this.

Civilis himself was a general, and he liked things organized and was especially fond of Roman culture, and even though he loved the tribes, he thought they were chaotic. And the point of maps were that many of the citizens lived in little settlements and towns all over the place, therefore Civilis would like to put them on a map. And there were Romans maps of Germania Inferior with the limes, fortresses, settlements and towns, so it is possible.

Maybe you have a link to Roman maps in the internet or articles about them? IT would be greatly appreciated. As I said before, the only Roman maps I saw so far depicted parts of the Empire on a very long, yet quite small strip of papyrus and provided no perspective or topological accuracy of any use. They only provided travelling days between cities.
 

Flame

Banned
Never heart of that until now - I was just remembering my old Latin classes in school, where we translated some texts in which it was described how Romans frequently required witnesses to prove their identity. After all, the problem is that identity cards with the technology of the time can easily be copied and, even if the Batavians were more civilized than their Germanic neighbours, functioning identity cards require bureaucracy to give them out and to control them continuously. One must be able to trace back the origin of the card, for example.

Point taken. :)

OK, you've got a point again. Certainly, there will be possibilities to imrpove infrastructure in general. Nevertheless, I think organized ferries, a military river fleet and an organized, water-based poastal service could provide very modern infrastructure at rather low costs.

I someqhat doubt that. Servie in an army does not necessarily imply that ordinary ranks can read maps - or read at all. And I'm not sure in what way Romans used maps at all. The maps I know simply connect - without any realistic depiction - cities by lines along which the days required to travel between those cities is denoted. There's no possibility in using those maps in actual orientation.

Nevertheless, you have a point that at least some Batavians had higher ranks in the Roman army and actually could read and were decently educated in all military things including orientation - although I doubt that maps would be a large part of this.

Maybe you have a link to Roman maps in the internet or articles about them? IT would be greatly appreciated. As I said before, the only Roman maps I saw so far depicted parts of the Empire on a very long, yet quite small strip of papyrus and provided no perspective or topological accuracy of any use. They only provided travelling days between cities.

Thank you again for your input, and yeah, the cards/parchment are probably not going to happen :p And I like your idea of the military ferries, but were talking about swamps and rivers here, the bridges were more to make communication easier rather than to provide citizens a better way of traveling. I personally think that a transporting fleet would be fairly hard to do, but this not my area of expertise, and you do seem to know something about it, so, do you think it is possible?

And your right, not every single soldier would be able to do it, but 10.000/40.000 Batavians were in the army, and like you said there would be some high ranking soldiers around that could probably read maps. The point of the maps wasn't about reading them though, it was more to organize the locations of all the towns and settlements all over the place.

And about the maps, while I was doing research I ran into a couple of ancient maps, more sketches though, and yeah there were a few that simply connected towns/limes, but I ran into a few good reconstructions of the maps (based of Roman maps ofcourse) and a few that might be a worth a nickel, I'll try to find them again and post them here soonly.
 
Last edited:
Thank you again for your input, and yeah, the cards/parchment are probably not going to happen :p And I like your idea of the military ferries, but were talking about swamps and rivers here, the bridges were more to make communication easier rather than to provide citizens a better way of traveling. I personally think that a transporting fleet would be fairly hard to do, but this not my area of expertise, and you do seem to know something about it, so, do you think it is possible?

Sorry, I'm no expert on this. All I knew is that the Romans employed quite elaborate river barges along the Rhine and the Danube river both for transportation even of higher quantities of goods and for fast troop deployments. I'd say it should be sufficient to establish ferries along the main trade routes, one could even toll them. Most probably, these already existed, but one can make them "official" and use some Roman technology on them. The same could be applied for military use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Navy

Wikipedia says that the "classis Germanica", a fleet predominantly for rivers, was established 12 BC by Drusus. It controled the Rhine but also operated in the North sea. Therefore, we can take as granted that the Batavians already know about that fleet and frequently saw it. Do you know where the Batavian soldiers were employed? If they were held locally, I'd assume that at least some Batavians actually served in the classis Germanica due to knowledge of the region.

Considering transportation, I remember a Roman sculpture in a museum which depicted a river barge able to hold a double layer of in sum around 20 barrels of wine operating on the Moselle river. As the Rhine arms in Batavia are by far larger, there'll probably already be Roman barges of larger scale - but even the Moselle barges would serve as perfect ferries you can easily toll for to gain income for the kingdom.

Interestingly, Wikipedia also says that the Classis Germanica got an honorable name Augusta Pia Fidelis Domitiana following the suppression of the Revolt of Saturninus in 89. So it's not that far fetched to let the Batavians have what the Romans have.

Hope that helps you.
 

Flame

Banned
Sorry, I'm no expert on this. All I knew is that the Romans employed quite elaborate river barges along the Rhine and the Danube river both for transportation even of higher quantities of goods and for fast troop deployments. I'd say it should be sufficient to establish ferries along the main trade routes, one could even toll them. Most probably, these already existed, but one can make them "official" and use some Roman technology on them. The same could be applied for military use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Navy

Wikipedia says that the "classis Germanica", a fleet predominantly for rivers, was established 12 BC by Drusus. It controled the Rhine but also operated in the North sea. Therefore, we can take as granted that the Batavians already know about that fleet and frequently saw it. Do you know where the Batavian soldiers were employed? If they were held locally, I'd assume that at least some Batavians actually served in the classis Germanica due to knowledge of the region.

Considering transportation, I remember a Roman sculpture in a museum which depicted a river barge able to hold a double layer of in sum around 20 barrels of wine operating on the Moselle river. As the Rhine arms in Batavia are by far larger, there'll probably already be Roman barges of larger scale - but even the Moselle barges would serve as perfect ferries you can easily toll for to gain income for the kingdom.

Interestingly, Wikipedia also says that the Classis Germanica got an honorable name Augusta Pia Fidelis Domitiana following the suppression of the Revolt of Saturninus in 89. So it's not that far fetched to let the Batavians have what the Romans have.

Hope that helps you.

Alright, that is quite interesting, and it did help me, thank you. I'm sure that the Batavians knew about the ships since many of them did serve locally. Wikipedia however, states that the Batavians had their own "fleet" that had several small naval battles with Romans all across the Rhine, unfortunately wikipedia is rather vague about it.

And interesting about the Moselle ferries, so you're proposing that Civilis should use his ships as toll ferries for people wanting to cross the rhine? That means that they need some sort of currency as well, but with Germania Inferior being a Roman provice, I assume that they had coins, but I'll check that.
 
And interesting about the Moselle ferries, so you're proposing that Civilis should use his ships as toll ferries for people wanting to cross the rhine?

Yes. We can assume that some sort of ferries existed anyway, so making them "official" provides control and income. Furthermore, they are vastly cheaper than bridges.

I don't know where you're going with the timeline, but some naval prowess could lead to increased seafaring by Batavians, resulting in expansion along the coast, increased trade on the North sea at this early age and Batavia becoming more important for the Romans (by providing means of power projection into Northern Germany along the coast and up the rivers).

That means that they need some sort of currency as well, but with Germania Inferior being a Roman provice, I assume that they had coins, but I'll check that.

Good point, didn't think of that. But you're right, they will be used to Roman coins. Interestingly, then, toll-ferries requiring payment in Roman coins leads to a more widespread usage of currency, which could lead to more trade in Batavia. And you might get the first Germanic coinage in Batavia.
 

Flame

Banned
I changed a bit of Chapter 2, making it a little more ethical. And as a comment for nlspeed and Monty Burns, you guys wore saying how the things he wanted to do were not possible, like I said in my various replies, they weren't neccesarily going to happen. Anyways, here is chapter 3, I wrote most of it at 3 o'clock at night, so I'll probably be doing some editing tomorrow morning. And the ferrying idea is kind of advanced for the beginning stage and so I will include it in future chapters.


Chapter 3: Reforms of Rex Civilis I by Gaius Cornelius Tacticus


As time progressed the Roman soldiers originally stationed at the Rhine left Batavia and new fortifications were made more south in Germania Inferior.

As for the Batavians, many things were changing in the once Roman lands. King Civilis I was very busy governing his new country, changing little things here and there, he could not change everything that he wanted to change though, not without Roman help.

King Civilis I however did do many things he intended on doing, such as Germanizing the former Germania Inferior by changing the names of many towns that previously had Roman names, one example being the capital of Batavia, Oppidum Batavorum, whose name was changed into Batavië. But, interestingly enough, Civilis urged to maintain the presence of Roman architecture in the Batavian villages, as well as urging his men to keep practicing their Latin.

King Civilis used the Roman government as an inspiration for his Batavian one, the most obvious example being his position of king based on the Roman position of emperor. Another thing that King Civilis wanted to recreate was the Roman senate, and therefore he established a “council” that was roughly based on it. The council started off consisting of only King Civilis and his most trusted soldiers and generals, but over time it started incorporating more citizens from different villages who would discuss what the people of Batavia wanted, and how they could obtain whatever they needed. In the first year after the Batavian kingdom was founded, year 2 of Emperor Vespasian (70 AD), the Batavian council consisted of 22 members, 15 out of the 22 being civilians.

King Civilis I had the few long cobbled roads the Romans already made maintained properly, and had many dirt roads made all across Batavia, as they were efficient yet extremely cheap and easy to make. King Civilis I also wanted a large fortress built in Batavië near the treasury (storage) of the kingdom, which would also house the "senate" for the time being. King Civilis I also desperately wanted a map that showed all of the local towns and rivers in the area in a strategic way to be made. And so the Batavians used Roman cartheographic technology to make the desired map, being aided by Romans from Castra Vetera though, which was a fortress that was to remain under Roman control. It was said that the massive map of Germania Inferior (and the land above it) was going to be hanged in the fortress in Batavië. Civilis’ first year as king would not only be filled with achievements and success stories, as he was facing a few minor setpacks, the most obvious of which being the 10,000 soldiers having nothing to do after the Romans left. Civilis considered letting them become mercenaries for the Romans, but decided that their lives were not his to gamble.

But the problem solved itself as many soldiers were able to settle in with their families and work as farmers, herders, hunters, smithees etc. Some however were not able to fit into the local economy, so Civilis hired them as a sort of temporary working force who helped build the many things Civilis wanted built (such as the fortress) as well as slightly improving the general quality of villages by repairing houses, fences and buildings.
 
Last edited:

Flame

Banned
And if anyone is wondering where all the of the "edits" are for, I have been spell checking my replies.
 
Top