The King of Light Will Appear (明王出世)

I do have quibbles regarding minetary discouragement. I think even that could be enough to cause trouble.

Well, I think you're absolutely right. It will undoubtedly cause some trouble, and the Xia will have to deal with more internal unrest at the outset than is generally the case. Look for some interesting Buddhist and Daoist sects to pop up as a result of being forced underground, so to speak. That said, the kind of gentle discouragement that the Xia will employ in lieu of more forceful measures will, I think, militate against any sort of broad-based national resistance to their disfavor of sects seen to be incompatible with millenarian principles. And of course, as I tried to emphasize, it's really not that difficult for more traditional Buddhist and Daoist groupings to tweak their ideology and thus avoid any official disfavor.

Do the Xia really need to force the Tibetans into submission? Is it about keeping the border secure?

Well, they really don't need to force the Tibetans into submission at all. Tibet is a long ways away, no one is likely to attack from that direction, and there's really not much of value there that I'm aware of. Thus, I think it's more likely than not that the Xia won't attempt any conquest or what have you. It would be prohibitively expensive and the rewards would be comparatively small. So I think we'll see a completely independent Tibet, not bound by any sort of tributary state arrangement with China, which should be rather interesting. I'm unsure as to exactly what this will mean in both the short and the long term, but I look forward to the challenge of trying to find out.

Are we to assume that Xia China is not interested in Manchuria or Tibet? If they are completely disinterested in Manchuria, I'd assume that have consequences when dealing with Korea.

Manchuria is really a different tale than Tibet entirely. The Xia are quite interested in securing the northern border and further weakening the Mongols, it's just that they haven't had as much success early on as the Ming did OTL due to the slightly longer survival of Toghun Temur, which kept the remnants of Yuan together for that much longer. Now that he's out of the picture, I think we'll see the Xia go on the offensive, likely with favorable results. Korea is a very interesting case. I can't see them jumping into bed with the Xia given the whole Manichaeism business - but exactly what line they'll take, and how the Xia will respond, is something that I really haven't decided how to work out yet. As you noted, I believe, in an earlier post, there is the potential for some major Korean butterflies around this time, which could shake things up even more.

I'm kinda surrpised the Xia are less warlike than Ming, but maybe I should not be.

Fang - the new Yuan High Admiral parallel, or perhaps an early Zheng He? (pretty please?).

I actually wouldn't characterize them as less warlike, just as less successful in extending their domains than the Ming were to this point. I think they're a bit weaker than the Ming were at this stage. That said, remember that even in OTL Yunnan, for example, didn't fall until after 1380, so these things take a bit of time to come together.

As for Fang, well, we certainly won't be seeing him sail off to Mogadishu anytime soon! That said, out of sight is out of mind, and it's certainly in Ming Yuzhen's interest to keep Fang busy and happy as opposed to idle and possibly contemplating the idea of revolution or some such. I'm thinking that he'll be undertaking some operations in the south in the not so distant future. Perhaps there's a more-navally oriented equivalent of the early Ming's invasion of Vietnam in the cards. Or, given that his base at this point is in Fujian, perhaps he'll get intrigued by a certain island that's not too far away at all, just a bit to the east in fact . . .

Who ever said bureaucracy was boring? I echo the last two commentators when I say that this entry was actually pretty interesting.

I'm glad to hear that, and that people weren't too bored with the bureaucracy bits, because one of my objectives in this timeline is to really talk a lot about the internal workings of the dynasty that I've propelled to power. Formulation of policy on a national level, its promulgation at more local levels of government, factional struggles within the bureaucracy, and so forth: these are all themes that I plan to return to quite a bit. Anyway, this last post was more of an overview; going forward, there are a lot of cool little offices and departments buried within the layers of bureaucracy that I'd like to draw out and talk about more. I'm excited already.
 
so good

I love everything about this TL, Manichean (Ming) Dynasty with court intrigue, class conflict, rouge Grand Admirals of the Eastern Shores, Censorate investigators, uncooperative Xizang and Koreans... This TL has everything I want! Looking forward to seeing this rekindled...?

The dawn of the 1400's is soon upon us and this is when things get interesting not merely for China but for the world, and there are so many places for this to go!
 
Looking forward to seeing this rekindled...

Oh, thanks for reminding me about this one. I've been meaning to come back and write something for like six weeks now, but just haven't gotten around to it. Anyway, yes, I do have some interesting ideas for both the short and long-term, so hopefully I can put something together by Friday or so and get the show back on the road. And of course, if anyone's got a really fun idea, don't hesitate to run it by me and I'll try to work it in if plausible.
 
Look for some interesting Buddhist and Daoist sects to pop up as a result of being forced underground, so to speak. That said, the kind of gentle discouragement that the Xia will employ in lieu of more forceful measures will, I think, militate against any sort of broad-based national resistance to their disfavor of sects seen to be incompatible with millenarian principles. And of course, as I tried to emphasize, it's really not that difficult for more traditional Buddhist and Daoist groupings to tweak their ideology and thus avoid any official disfavor.

There is also the possibility of folk religion to creep into these discussions vis-a-vis the underground religions, i'd expect, but as they go underground i'd expect them to harden and become more guarded and less mailable.

Well, they really don't need to force the Tibetans into submission at all. Tibet is a long ways away, no one is likely to attack from that direction, and there's really not much of value there that I'm aware of. Thus, I think it's more likely than not that the Xia won't attempt any conquest or what have you. It would be prohibitively expensive and the rewards would be comparatively small. So I think we'll see a completely independent Tibet, not bound by any sort of tributary state arrangement with China, which should be rather interesting. I'm unsure as to exactly what this will mean in both the short and the long term, but I look forward to the challenge of trying to find out.

I'd always been taught that the Xizang people in this era were very strong and quite militant (red hats) and their expansion was well into Chinese territory during the 14th century. It had always seemed to me that the impression of the very pacific Xizang was not at all applicable at that time, and that they were highly expansionist and aggressive at the time of the foundation of your Xia. I would expect them to actually be a player for dominance on the western border.

Manchuria is really a different tale than Tibet entirely. The Xia are quite interested in securing the northern border and further weakening the Mongols, it's just that they haven't had as much success early on as the Ming did OTL due to the slightly longer survival of Toghun Temur, which kept the remnants of Yuan together for that much longer. Now that he's out of the picture, I think we'll see the Xia go on the offensive, likely with favorable results.

I would be interested in the possibility of that extra time making a difference in how much territory the Xia is able to acquire in the north; it could be less as there would be some kind of force in the north frustrating their efforts, or it could also mean that the stronger resistance to the Xia results in a more prolonged campaign resulting in a greater northernly territorial gain than iOTL

Korea is a very interesting case. I can't see them jumping into bed with the Xia given the whole Manichaeism business - but exactly what line they'll take, and how the Xia will respond, is something that I really haven't decided how to work out yet. There is the potential for some major Korean butterflies around this time, which could shake things up even more.

Korea would be a very exciting addition to this mix, as we're right in the time when Yi Seonggye would overthrow Gongyang and the Goryeo Dynasty. His revolt instead of an invasion of the Ming was a major turning point in Korean history and a change in that result in 1388 could bring parts of manchuria and the Liaodong Peninsula in Korean hands, or at least add to the amount of struggle the Xia is facing on its borders.

As for Fang, well, we certainly won't be seeing him sail off to Mogadishu anytime soon! That said, out of sight is out of mind, and it's certainly in Ming Yuzhen's interest to keep Fang busy and happy as opposed to idle and possibly contemplating the idea of revolution or some such. I'm thinking that he'll be undertaking some operations in the south in the not so distant future. Perhaps there's a more-navally oriented equivalent of the early Ming's invasion of Vietnam in the cards. Or, given that his base at this point is in Fujian, perhaps he'll get intrigued by a certain island that's not too far away at all, just a bit to the east in fact . . .

I'm not going to lie this is all very exciting stuff, inasmuch as Fang's territorial acquisition in the southern region would mean very big things for later developments. This Xia dynasty would look to have more southerly roots and that could be an advantage going along were it to mean a stronger power base in the south alongside an increased Chinese presence earlier in Southeast Asia.

going forward, there are a lot of cool little offices and departments buried within the layers of bureaucracy that I'd like to draw out and talk about more. I'm excited already.

Readers of your other TL's are all about these kinds of developments and the level of detail that goes into them are always the most exciting part.

Oh, thanks for reminding me about this one. I've been meaning to come back and write something for like six weeks now, but just haven't gotten around to it. Anyway, yes, I do have some interesting ideas for both the short and long-term, so hopefully I can put something together by Friday or so and get the show back on the road. And of course, if anyone's got a really fun idea, don't hesitate to run it by me and I'll try to work it in if plausible.

Well, here's something; Luo Guanzhong was around at your POD; it'd be very interesting to see how contemporary events change or effect either his editing of 水浒传 or his authorship of 三国演义! Also, 西游记 is still some time away but it would be interesting to see how very different it is likely to be in this TL

Looking forward to it!
 
Korea would be a very exciting addition to this mix, as we're right in the Well, here's something; Luo Guanzhong was around at your POD; it'd be very interesting to see how contemporary events change or effect either his editing of 水浒传 or his authorship of 三国演义! Also, 西游记 is still some time away but it would be interesting to see how very different it is likely to be in this TL

Looking forward to it!

Damn! I vote for something on this. Alternate versions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and The Water Margin? Sign me up!
 
Still planning on continuing this? Nice to see Chinese TLs on this board.

Also, after reading the first page, I have a question (which probably comes from my lack of knowledge about Chinese history more than anything): you said that Zhang Shicheng was both an orthodox Confucian, and that he was originally a merchant, and that due to his power base China might have become more trade-oriented if he had come to power. Thing is, I thought orthodox Confucianism detested merchants (IIRC because they just moved stuff around rather than "producing" anything of value), and that they were the lowest rung on the traditional social hierarchy, below farmers and laborers. So obviously I'm not getting something here-where their different schools of Confucianism, some which liked merchants more? Is my notion of Confucianism's attitude towards merchants wrong? Because I can't see why someone who was a merchant and had a powerbase among merchants would pick a religion that hates merchants.
 
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