The Junkers 88 is Germany's only medium bomber

[Deleted member 1487]

I really disagree here. The Me-210 was neither redundant not silly. The fact that it was a failure does not show that the concept itself was faulty. A high-speed heavy two-seat fighter with a dive-bombing capability is a very different type of plane than a largish, fastish, multiplace aircraft like the Ju-88. It its "perfected" Me-410 version, the plane was faster, more manuverable, and much more capable of surviving in the face of fighter opposition than the 88. It was the closest thing Germany had to the Mosquito.

The M210 was redundant as it was still utilizing the dive bombing concept, which was out of date by the 1941 period. Also the dive bombing addition to the design compromised it, even though it was designed from day one as a dive bomber. It couldn't do that and all of its other missions, which delayed it until the late 1943 Me410 finally got it to work, but by then dive bombing was no longer a viable option.

I agree that the type itself if it stuck to a light, tactical bomber concept had potential, but paring that with dive bombing meant that it was inferior to the Mosquito in every way: it was slower, had less bomb load, and less range IIRC.

As a daylight bomber destroyer the Ju88 and Ju188 were not used, so they were not stripped down to that level and optimized for speed. I think that it could have been as fast if not faster in a two seat version, deleting the defensive guns. Yes, the Me410 was much more maneuverable, but it was so late to the party that a Ju88C6+ with high powered DB603 or BMW801E engines would have been to the game earlier and just as effective if optimized for quick passes and diving.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Wiking, the engines that failed were the coupled ones. There was nothing wrong with the DB603 and the Jumo213. If the LW had embraced the four proper engines formula for it 6000HP aircraft rather than the two coupled ones, they would have gotten out of a lot of trouble.
The He177 is a clear case. With four DB605, and later with four DB603, it would have been a perfectly decent aircraft that would have been useful.

I actually posted that several days ago on another forum dedicated to WW2 aircraft. The He177 though is outside this argument, as it is a whole can of worms on its own. I fully agree with you about the He177B, but I disagree that its failure with the coupled engines had anything to do with the Ju288 Bomber B.

The engine I am referring to were the Jumo222 which were not coupled, nor were necessary for the He177B to work.
Rather it was necessary for the Ju288 and other Bomber B competitors to function to near spec, otherwise they were too slow with existing engines.

 

[zoomar]

You're about to be jumped by a squadron of Do335 fans

Yeah, and after my gunner damages him during his stern approach, the bolts designed to eject his seat fail and he gets sliced to bits by the pusher prop that also failed to drop off when his ejector seat misfired. I'm ready! Bring it on Anteater People!

 

[AdA]

I actually posted that several days ago on another forum dedicated to WW2 aircraft. The He177 though is outside this argument, as it is a whole can of worms on its own. I fully agree with you about the He177B, but I disagree that its failure with the coupled engines had anything to do with the Ju288 Bomber B.

The engine I am referring to were the Jumo222 which were not coupled, nor were necessary for the He177B to work.
Rather it was necessary for the Ju288 and other Bomber B competitors to function to near spec, otherwise they were too slow with existing engines.

The Ju222 was even worst, being close to a tripled configuration, either being six inline six engines pretending to be a long radial or three V12 joined at the bottoms. It was a case of why do it simple when you can do it complicated.
The He177 is relevant because if I had worked, and with four DB605 it would, the whole Bomber B program wouldn't make sense, because the He177 would do all the jobs the Bomber B was meant to do. And with the D 603, it would do them at Bomber B speeds, too.
the Bomber B typifies the LW "and now for something completely different" mentality. It would be one of their downfalls.

 

[cortz#9]

Yeah, and after my gunner damages him during his stern approach, the bolts designed to eject his seat fail and he gets sliced to bits by the pusher prop that also failed to drop off when his ejector seat misfired. I'm ready! Bring it on Anteater People!

So my three cannons miss but your remote controlled MGs don't? I hardly think so!

 

[AdA]

Yeah, and after my gunner damages him during his stern approach, the bolts designed to eject his seat fail and he gets sliced to bits by the pusher prop that also failed to drop off when his ejector seat misfired. I'm ready! Bring it on Anteater People!

You'll recognise them because they allways move in pairs, back to back, one firing forwards and one backwards, like their beloved engine configuration. If you're lucky they might inadvertently swich places and kill one another

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The Ju222 was even worst, being close to a tripled configuration, either being six inline six engines pretending to be a long radial or three V12 joined at the bottoms. It was a case of why do it simple when you can do it complicated.
The He177 is relevant because if I had worked, and with four DB605 it would, the whole Bomber B program wouldn't make sense, because the He177 would do all the jobs the Bomber B was meant to do. And with the D 603, it would do them at Bomber B speeds, too.
the Bomber B typifies the LW "and now for something completely different" mentality. It would be one of their downfalls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_222

By late 1941, Junkers decided the best course of action was to make more radical changes to the design, and introduced the 222C and 222D models. With a new bore and stroke of 145x140 mm (5.7x5.5 in), the engine displacement increased a second time, to 55.5 L (3,386.8 in³), just very slightly larger than the contemporary Wright Duplex Cyclone American 18-cylinder air-cooled radial engine, which at the time was having its own significant problems ironed out, partially from the use of combustible magnesium-alloy metal for its crankcase. Back at the original 3,200 rpm, the Jumo 222 C/D models could deliver just under 2,200 kW (3,000 hp) when they started running in the summer of 1942. However, the problems were not cured, and only a handful were built. The RLM had been waiting for three years at this point, and eventually gave up and had all designs based on it look for alternate engines. Later that year, they gave up on that as well, and cancelled the entire Bomber B program outright.

Junkers still did not give up. Using the original 46.4 litre displacement A/B design, they added a new two-stage supercharger including a trio of aftercoolers, one per pair of neighboring cylinder banks for high-altitude use, producing the 222E and F-series. Although sea-level performance was unchanged, the engine was able to produce 1,439 kW (1,930 hp) at 9,000 m (29,530 ft). By this point it appeared that the problems were finally being worked out, but bombing of the Junkers Motorenwerke's headquarters factories in Dessau made production almost impossible.

Based on this and some other sources the problems with the Jumo 222 could have and were being worked out when the RLM cancelled the project.

As to the Bomber B:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomber_B

Bomber B called for a new medium bomber with a maximum speed of 600 km/h (375 mph), able to carry a bomb load of 4000 kg (8,820 lb) to any part of Britain from bases in France or Norway. To improve crew performance and defensive firepower, the designs were to have a pressurized cabin with remotely aimed armament. With the extended range, larger payload and better performance, the Bomber B design would replace all existing bombers in service.

Sounds like it was just a next generation medium bomber project, not one that was supposed to undertake the He177s missions.

There were other engines that could have been developed for the Bomber B:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_604

The Daimler-Benz DB 604 was an experimental German 24-cylinder aircraft engine, which did not progress beyond the initial engine testing phase and was ultimately abandoned in September 1942.

The DB 604 was a completely new Daimler-Benz engine design featuring a perfectly square stroke ratio of 135 mm x 135 mm. The square stroke ratio enabled the relatively high engine speed of 3,200 rpm. The first engine tested in 1939 on the engine test stand achieved a power output of 1,725 kW (2,350 hp).[1]

Further development of the first test engines led to the DB 604A/B. The only difference between the DB 604A and the DB 604B was the direction in which the crankshaft turned. The DB 604A/B was equipped with a two-speed supercharger, achieving 1,835 kW (2,500 hp) whilst testing.

Development of this promising engine was canceled by the Reich Air Ministry (RLM - German: Reichsluftfahrtministerium) in September 1942.[2]

It looked like this one also fell to RLM politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_802

Development was still underway in late 1943 when BMW decided the project simply wasn't worthwhile. With their BMW 003 axial-flow turbojet engine finally maturing and considerably larger models of turbojet and turboprop engines entering the prototype phase from both BMW and their competitors, it appeared that large piston engines simply weren't worth building.

A further improvement led to P.8011, which replaced the supercharger with two smaller turbochargers, driving contra-rotating propellers. This raised the takeoff power to about 2,800 PS (2,059 kW), (some report 2,900 PS (2,133 kW)) and dramatically improved altitude performance. As with most German turbocharger projects, the lack of quality high-temperature alloys meant the project was never able to enter production.

 

[zoomar]

The Ju222 was even worst, being close to a tripled configuration, either being six inline six engines pretending to be a long radial or three V12 joined at the bottoms. It was a case of why do it simple when you can do it complicated.

But what about teutonic ingenuity. Will Germans make anything simple when it can be complex? How will we know they are so smart?


The He177 is relevant because if I had worked, and with four DB605 it would, the whole Bomber B program wouldn't make sense, because the He177 would do all the jobs the Bomber B was meant to do. And with the D 603, it would do them at Bomber B speeds, too.
the Bomber B typifies the LW "and now for something completely different" mentality. It would be one of their downfalls.

You are quite correct. Had the He-177 been built from the outset as a four engined level bomber, the LW would have little need for medium bombers designed primarily to do the same thing, except with smaller planes. As the He-111, Do-17/217, and Ju-88 approached obsolescence they could all be abandoned, perhaps with the 88 alone being further developed as a more specialized high speed intruder, maritime attacker, or close support bomber in a 188/388 guise

 

[AdA]

He177 missions. Like I said, apart from the speed, and the DB603 would have brought it close to it, taking a 4t bombload to any part of Britain was exactly the mission the He177 had.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

He177 missions. Like I said, apart from the speed, and the DB603 would have brought it close to it, taking a 4t bombload to any part of Britain was exactly the mission the He177 had.

From bases in Germany even a DB601 or Jumo 211 engined He177B would be able to take 4 tons to any part of Britain, probably 5-6 tons to London and most of England. Add in the DB603 or the DB801 and we see 5 tons to any part of Britain and 6-7 tons to most of England.

 

[AdA]

From bases in Germany even a DB601 or Jumo 211 engined He177B would be able to take 4 tons to any part of Britain, probably 5-6 tons to London and most of England. Add in the DB603 or the DB801 and we see 5 tons to any part of Britain and 6-7 tons to most of England.

Wich brings to light the wrongness of the bomber B spec. They had a long range bomber that could have worked in 1941, if only they had allowed it to be normal, without being stressed for dive bombing and fitted with coupled engines. And they had an excellent medium bomber, the Ju88B, that in later 188 and even later 388 form came to be seen as the saviour of the whole project. They then, having ruined their heavy bomber project, decided to ruin the medium one by making extremely ambitious requirements and encouraging the manufacturers to try out new concepts. Meanwhile, the US were laying the groundwork for the B29 introducing the B26 and the superlative A26 Invader, while the RAF went for the perfect garage fit of a large SUV, the Lancaster, and a sport sedan, the Mosquito...

 

[AdA]

The Ju222 was even worst, being close to a tripled configuration, either being six inline six engines pretending to be a long radial or three V12 joined at the bottoms. It was a case of why do it simple when you can do it complicated.

But what about teutonic ingenuity. Will Germans make anything simple when it can be complex? How will we know they are so smart?


The He177 is relevant because if I had worked, and with four DB605 it would, the whole Bomber B program wouldn't make sense, because the He177 would do all the jobs the Bomber B was meant to do. And with the D 603, it would do them at Bomber B speeds, too.
the Bomber B typifies the LW "and now for something completely different" mentality. It would be one of their downfalls.

You are quite correct. Had the He-177 been built from the outset as a four engined level bomber, the LW would have little need for medium bombers designed primarily to do the same thing, except with smaller planes. As the He-111, Do-17/217, and Ju-88 approached obsolescence they could all be abandoned, perhaps with the 88 alone being further developed as a more specialized high speed intruder, maritime attacker, or close support bomber in a 188/388 guise

Agreed, on both counts.

 

[AdA]

Meanwhile, back in Russia...

Good old Tupolev was showing how it's done with the simple, pratical, and extremely useful Tu2S...

 

[AdA]

Specs

Did a quick comparative and the Tu2S and the Ju188E-1 could have been brothers.
Two radial engines of about the same power
Top speed 547 for the Russian, 500 for the German (slower E variant)
Bombload up to 3t for both
Range 2100km for the Russian, 2000 for the German

 

[Deleted member 1487]

He177 missions. Like I said, apart from the speed, and the DB603 would have brought it close to it, taking a 4t bombload to any part of Britain was exactly the mission the He177 had.

So shall we also suggest a what if with the He177 ready in time for the Liverpool Blitz in May 1941? What would a Geschwader of 90 or so He177's carrying about 5 tons of ordnance do to Liverpool?

 

[cortz#9]

So shall we also suggest a what if with the He177 ready in time for the Liverpool Blitz in May 1941? What would a Geschwader of 90 or so He177's carrying about 5 tons of ordnance do to Liverpool?

Butterfly away the Beatles?

 

[Astrodragon]

There are a few points I think you are missing. There are very good reasons in war NOT to go for a single design...

(1) While you are changing your existnig factories to make that wonderful new bomber design, they aren't actually producing any planes...

(2) If anything, anything at all, goes wrong with your Ju88, or if the allies suddenly come with something that negates it in some way, you are well and truly f***d. At least if you have a number of diffferent models in service the chance of this is reduced.

(3) You wouldnt actually achieve much improvement in efficiency UNLESS you don't continually update the plane. In which case it becomes steadily obsolute and you also end up f***d. Because of the need to constantly introduce improvements and chages, aircraft types in WW2 simply weren't built in the numbers really needed (the estimate for the RAF was about 500 planes for fighters, less for bombers). The US came closest (on paper), but at the cost of aircraft sitting around in a modification centre (which actually meant the real rate of production per man was a lot closer to the UK figures - the main diffeernces were things like no need for blackouts/air raids and so on)

 

[Just Leo]

f***d.

It's okay to write out "fried" in clear text, if that's what you mean.

 

[Astrodragon]

It's okay to write out "fried" in clear text, if that's what you mean.

All f***d up.
Standard military parlance

 

[AdA]

That's why I used the expression Phased switch in my opening statement. The Ju88B to Ju188 was an easy move. Production of the Ju188 could start alongside the Ju88. Once it was a sure thing, and it was very likely to be, the transition process could be conducted in a way that would not cause any major production halts.
Btw 1934 and 1941 the German factories constantly changed models, often with huge jumps in capability. They kept producing the He111, Do217, and, to a lesser degree, the Ju88 not because they couldn't manage change, but because the next generation failed, above all because of wrong engine choices partly motivated by I'll conceived requirments.