Convertion is quiet inevitable. But they can still preserve some parts of their culture. Cahtolic Church hardly can fully control what is happening in Aztec Empire.
The Jaguar's Roar - An Aztec Timeline
- Thread starter Vinization
- Start date
Convertion is quiet inevitable. But they can still preserve some parts of their culture. Cahtolic Church hardly can fully control what is happening in Aztec Empire.
True but I do hope that the Aztecs and the rest of Mesoamericans (minus the ones who allied with Cortes and the Spaniards) keeps their temples and clothing.
The European powers were happy enough to have trade with India and China despite them not being Christian. Why is there the assumption that they need to be Christian to have trade relations with European powers?
As far as human sacrifice--keep in mind that that helped cement the tlatoani's power, and that they were starting to centralize the state anyway. Also, there were a variety of sacrificial rituals involving bloodletting that weren't fatal, and would result in far fewer diplomatic consequences than actual human sacrifice.
Eh. I don't think conversion is inevitable. The Norse converted because they were right next door to Christendom.
I do think human sacrifice will at least be rolled back eventually. Until it's basically just state sponsored ritual assisted suicide. They might even become the leading advocates for suicide rights.
I do think human sacrifice will at least be rolled back eventually. Until it's basically just state sponsored ritual assisted suicide. They might even become the leading advocates for suicide rights.
I guess that they are going with sacrification of animals at some point. This is how sacrifications in Europe and Middle East ended gradually. Firstly human sacrification was just more and more rare and then finally only animals were sacrificed. This might too end at some pont.
Altough that rithaual suicide is quiet intresting and possible. Not sure would it be pretty close of Japanese seppuku.
I wouldn’t refer to a failed Spanish invasion as a screw, more of a lack of a wank. Hell, the defeat might even help them in the long run by avoiding their over-reliance on American silver.
One of the Tag is Spain screw so I’m expecting butterfly won’t be kind to Spain in that TL .
1. As long as someone decided to invade they would always have a pretty good chance to win by exploiting the pre-existing local politics and recruiting local allies. If a European victory really was that unlikely it wouldn't have been replicated a dozen times over in other Mesoamerican states or South America.
2. The only reason why Philip relied so much on American silver was because otherwise he simply wouldn't have money... Like, at all... When Charles left Spain to him it was already in debt and running on an annual deficit. He then found himself involved in even more wars for practically all of his reign which didn't exactly help his finances. He didn't just rely on the silver, he needed it.
I imagine that’s more a of a relative screw. Compared to OTL, going from owning two thirds of the Americas to owning a handful of Caribbean islands is quite the fall from grace.
Honestly, this is completely irrelevant to what I said. What was the point here?
That’s why I said long term. American silver was ruinious to the Spanish economy due to rampant inflation. If Spain can get sugar production up on its Caribbean islands, it can get a strong flow of revenue without relying on a monkey’s paw.
Nah, the Treaty of Tordesillas was already done before the POD and it's unlikely that Portugal are going to be interested in trying to do something like that if the Spanish weren't able to do it with the Aztecs. Maybe the Spanish could colonize Brazil instead if Anahuac and Tawantinsuyu aren't viable inroads for conquest?
This might too discourage Spaniards going to forward or at least slow them. This would give more time for Incas.
you literally called the Spanish victory a wank by saying a defeat is "a lack of a wank"... Pointing out the consistency with which it succeeded iotl is a direct reply...
You take away the inflation (not the inability to replay loans) but how much of a long term success is left for Spain when Philip:
1. Doesn't have the money to build a fleet and defeat the Ottomans
2. Doesn't have the money to hold on to any part of the Netherlands, including the south
3. Doesn't have the money to support the Catholic League in France, who in turn can't resist the Protestants/Henry IV nearly as long or efficiently.
Taking away the silver not only weakens Spain, it strengthens all her enemies. It goes even further back than that, as even Charles already relied on the American silver to help repay the loans he took to fight all his wars as well. Taking it away is basically strangling the Spanish empire in its cradle.
The most realistic alternative is Philip still successfully becoming king of Portugal in the 1580s and using their Indian Ocean trade and sugar plantations as a source of income for the crown. But that would be way too late and still wouldn't be enough, it also wouldn't last. Furthermore shifting the Spanish focus from their now comparatively unprofitable colonies in the Americas to the east just leaves the Americas open to all the other Europeans instead. Just like how iotl the other Europeans profited from Spain's focus on the Americas to establish themselves in India and Indonesia instead.
Edit: I'm gonna stop this discussions since we're under someone else's tl lol
Portugal would also be hard pressed to go through the entire Amazon to get to the Inca.
Not really, going “Here’s the extremely specific set of circumstances needed to pull this off” doesn’t really contribute anything.
You’re not contradicting me. No shit Spain without the practically infinite money from America isn’t going to have as large of an empire, nobody said otherwise. Without the immense expenditures required to act like the Great Power of Europe, I would say Spain is indeed in a better position in the long run. Sure, Spain’s enemies will get stronger vis a vis them, but that happened anyway. Spain lost the Netherlands despite its empire, Spain became a second rate then third rate power despite its empire, Spain became overshadowed by its rivals despite its empire.
Frankly, I don’t see how Spain not having its empire in the first place could do much harm to it. It’s not like they used the empire to set the foundations of future wealth, and the War of Spanish Succession showed that nobody was going to let Spain get annexed, so while the state may be less of a contender, so what? Spain’s stint as a great power ended in its ruination, not its prosperity.
Part 2: The Price of Greed
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Part 2: The Price of Greed
Unaware of Alvarado's demise back in Tenochtitlan, Hernán Cortés and his followers were busy celebrating a formidable victory of their own: they had just defeated an expedition led by Pánfilo de Narváez, which outnumbered them at least two to one, thanks to a daring night attack. As if that wasn't enough, Cortés was able to convince most of Narváez's men to join him after telling them of the vast, almost incomprehensible treasures waiting for them in the capital of the Mexica, something that was predictably very well received by men who had left their now distant homeland a few years before in the search of glory and riches. The army under the command of the outlaw-turned-potential-conqueror grew from a little more than two hundred to approximately 1.300 foot soldiers, most of them rodeleros, who were backed by 96 horsemen, 15 cannons and, most importantly, at least 2.000 Totonac and Tlaxcalan warriors. Said army began the long journey back to Tenochtitlan in May 29, after two days of rest.
Part 2: The Price of Greed
Unaware of Alvarado's demise back in Tenochtitlan, Hernán Cortés and his followers were busy celebrating a formidable victory of their own: they had just defeated an expedition led by Pánfilo de Narváez, which outnumbered them at least two to one, thanks to a daring night attack. As if that wasn't enough, Cortés was able to convince most of Narváez's men to join him after telling them of the vast, almost incomprehensible treasures waiting for them in the capital of the Mexica, something that was predictably very well received by men who had left their now distant homeland a few years before in the search of glory and riches. The army under the command of the outlaw-turned-potential-conqueror grew from a little more than two hundred to approximately 1.300 foot soldiers, most of them rodeleros, who were backed by 96 horsemen, 15 cannons and, most importantly, at least 2.000 Totonac and Tlaxcalan warriors. Said army began the long journey back to Tenochtitlan in May 29, after two days of rest.
The Hispano-Tlaxcalan army on the move. Cortés and his mistress/translator Malintzin are in the front, leading it.
Meanwhile, hundreds of miles to the west, in the city that would be nicknamed the "Venice of the New World" by awed European visitors in the future, Moctezuma was busy mobilizing an army of truly gigantic proportions to crush the invaders once and for all. This force, which was led by Cuitláhuac, is believed to have numbered a whooping 100.000 men in total, far more numerous than anything their foes could muster and still one of the largest armies to ever be assembled in the Americas. The Mexica did not, however, intend to gamble everything on a big field battle despite their massive numerical superiority, but, instead, they set up an ambush right in the middle of the route the Spanish used to reach Tenochtitlan in 1519. The army was split into two forces of roughly equal size, one half being tasked with executing the main attack while the other stayed back as a reserve to be deployed if the situation called for it (1).
But Cortés was no fool. Although it was impossible for him to know about the gruesome fate that befell his lieutenant, the fact he didn't receive so much as a single message from him ever since he was left behind was more than enough of a sign that something was wrong. So he stopped in his tracks after reaching Tlaxcala then asked for and received thousands of extra warriors as reinforcements over several days. Fully rested and now numbering at least 20.000 men, the Hispano-Tlaxcaltec army continued onward, reaching the important town of Amaquemecan, flanked by the mighty twin volcanoes of Iztaccihuatl and Popocatépetl, on June 21. They were just 63 kilometers away from Tenochtitlan, a distance that could be covered in two days at most.
But Cortés was no fool. Although it was impossible for him to know about the gruesome fate that befell his lieutenant, the fact he didn't receive so much as a single message from him ever since he was left behind was more than enough of a sign that something was wrong. So he stopped in his tracks after reaching Tlaxcala then asked for and received thousands of extra warriors as reinforcements over several days. Fully rested and now numbering at least 20.000 men, the Hispano-Tlaxcaltec army continued onward, reaching the important town of Amaquemecan, flanked by the mighty twin volcanoes of Iztaccihuatl and Popocatépetl, on June 21. They were just 63 kilometers away from Tenochtitlan, a distance that could be covered in two days at most.
A map showing the route Cortés used to reach Tenochtitlan in 1519. Amaquemecan is located southeast of the Valley of Mexico.
And then the Mexica attacked, a wave of men that sprung from prepared positions on both sides of the road simultaneously and charged straight into the exposed flanks of the enemy force, their war cries sounding less like screams and more like a furious, terrifying tide. The invaders, who were organized in a long column, were unable to use their biggest strengths - their horsemen and cannons - effectively, and they suffered enormous casualties right from the get go. The situation was dire, and for a moment it looked as if the column was about to break up into multiple smaller bits, something that would turn the battle into a massacre. But it didn't. The Spanish contingent formed a square, with the rodeleros forming a perimeter around the crossbowmen and arquebusiers, who were thus free to fire upon the advancing Aztec troops with impunity.
Cuitláhuac couldn't believe the scenario unfolding before his eyes: his elite warriors, each of whom had earned their status by fighting in countless battles for many years, were unable to defeat a force they outnumbered several men to one, each successive attack being whittled down by bullets and crossbow bolts and then pushed back by what looked like an unbreakable wall of steel, and to make matters worse, the Spaniards' performance inspired the Tlaxcalans to regroup. It seemed, after a couple of hours, that the tide of the battle was about to shift, and it probably would have shifted were it not for the timely arrival of the Mexica reserve.
Cuitláhuac couldn't believe the scenario unfolding before his eyes: his elite warriors, each of whom had earned their status by fighting in countless battles for many years, were unable to defeat a force they outnumbered several men to one, each successive attack being whittled down by bullets and crossbow bolts and then pushed back by what looked like an unbreakable wall of steel, and to make matters worse, the Spaniards' performance inspired the Tlaxcalans to regroup. It seemed, after a couple of hours, that the tide of the battle was about to shift, and it probably would have shifted were it not for the timely arrival of the Mexica reserve.
The Battle of Amaquemecan. Tenochtitlan is shown in the background, an alluring prize that would never be seized.
Their intervention convinced Cortés of the need to return to Tlaxcala, for although his men had performed admirably and inflicted much greater casualties than the ones they suffered, fatigue was setting in, they were still badly outnumbered and also running low on ammunition. And it was at that moment where things began to go wrong for the invaders, since a there was a sizable detachment of Aztec warriors standing in their way, having been put there, away from most of the fighting, to prevent a retreat. The Spanish and Tlaxcalans had no choice but to fight through them, all the while being constantly pelted with stones, arrows and atlatl darts by the rest of the enemy army, suffering multiple casualties in the process. The final result of the Battle of Amaquemecan was, thus, a resounding defeat for the allies, who lost almost half of their force (at least 200 Spaniards and 8000 Tlaxcaltecs), were forced to abandon their wounded and, most importantly, their cannons, to the enemy (2). Still, the fact they managed to retreat back to Tlaxcala was nothing more than a miracle.
The Mexica, meanwhile, were anything but happy with their victory. Not only they had failed to annihilate their foes despite their overwhelming numerical advantage (though they did capture quite a few prisoners to sacrifice later), but their casualties were unacceptably high: 15.000 of their best men were killed, and thousands more were wounded. How could this have happened? It didn't take long for Cuitláhuac and his captains to notice the correlation between the Spaniards' armor and their stunning durability in battle, especially since Alvarado also proved himself to be a formidable opponent during his last stand at the Palace of Axayacatl. With this in mind, they organized, somewhat haphazardly at first, a small, elite unit of hand-picked warriors who were clad in heavy armor and equipped with small shields and swords. These "shining men", as they were called because of their equipment, were very small in number for now (150 men at most, at least those who were fully armored), but in time they would become some of the most feared members of the Mexica military (3).
A typical armor dating from the 16th century. The first "shining men" used what was left of the suits used by the Spaniards.
After a day of resting and licking their wounds, the Aztec army set out in pursuit of Cortés, reaching the outskirts of Ocotelolco, one of the four altepeme that made up the state of Tlaxcala, on June 26. As the troops massed to attack the city, defeat its entrenched defenders and plunder it in revenge for the destruction of Cholula, Cuitláhuac received a message informing him that he had a powerful new ally on his side: the tlatoani of Tizatlan, Ocotelolco's main rival for supremacy within Tlaxcala, Xicotencatl the Younger. Xicotencatl came close to obliterating Cortés' expedition in September 1519, and was only stopped from doing so after being persuaded by his father, Xicotencatl the Elder, and Maxixcatl, ruler of Ocotelolco. As a result, relations between him and the Spanish were uneasy at best, and the sight of the Mexica preparing to lay waste to everything and everyone who opposed them convinced him that continuing the war would be a very bad idea.
Thus, the Battle of Ocotelolco, which took place on June 27, was decided not by elaborate tactics or soldierly courage, but by treachery, since the troops under Xicotencatl's command - who made up most of what remained of the Tlaxcaltec army - suddenly returned home a day before battle was joined, abandoning the Spanish to their fate. In a matter of hours, every member of Cortés' army was either dead or captured, although a number of captains argued that at least some of the Spaniards should be spared so they could be interrogated later (4). As if that wasn't good enough, this victory ensured that all of Tlaxcala fell under Aztec control, with only Tizatlan being allowed to retain its dynasty thanks to Xicotencatl's actions.
Thus, the Battle of Ocotelolco, which took place on June 27, was decided not by elaborate tactics or soldierly courage, but by treachery, since the troops under Xicotencatl's command - who made up most of what remained of the Tlaxcaltec army - suddenly returned home a day before battle was joined, abandoning the Spanish to their fate. In a matter of hours, every member of Cortés' army was either dead or captured, although a number of captains argued that at least some of the Spaniards should be spared so they could be interrogated later (4). As if that wasn't good enough, this victory ensured that all of Tlaxcala fell under Aztec control, with only Tizatlan being allowed to retain its dynasty thanks to Xicotencatl's actions.
The Spaniards' last stand.
The only task left for Cuitláhuac to do before he could return to Tenochtitlan with his newly won booty and captives was to invade Totonacapan and punish its inhabitants for their support of the invasion. Little did he know that he would be forced to face an entirely new threat in just a few months.
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Notes:
(1) This is a much better approach than the one the Aztecs took when they tried to destroy Cortés after the Noche Triste, which led to the disastrous Battle of Otumba. They do this because:
A: They're on the defensive, instead of chasing the Spaniards;
B: They have more capable leaders/strategists/officers available since Alvarado is killed before he decapitates the Aztec nobility.
(2) Not that the Mexica know how to use them.
(3) Wikipedia (I know, I know) says the Aztecs used some Spanish weapons in the battles that took place after the Noche Triste, since they abandoned a lot of equipment at Tenochtitlan.
(4) Which will come in handy later on.
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Notes:
(1) This is a much better approach than the one the Aztecs took when they tried to destroy Cortés after the Noche Triste, which led to the disastrous Battle of Otumba. They do this because:
A: They're on the defensive, instead of chasing the Spaniards;
B: They have more capable leaders/strategists/officers available since Alvarado is killed before he decapitates the Aztec nobility.
(2) Not that the Mexica know how to use them.
(3) Wikipedia (I know, I know) says the Aztecs used some Spanish weapons in the battles that took place after the Noche Triste, since they abandoned a lot of equipment at Tenochtitlan.
(4) Which will come in handy later on.
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