The Italians of East Africa

Driftless

Donor
Thanks for the great update. Tonight I'm going to reread the whole thread to put things back into context.

I enjoy the uncommon aspects of this thread: Africa in WW2 and an alt Italian role.
 
Bravo. It was one of the topics I missed the most when it got innert. It is good to see it back alive.
Wait this one is actually alive and not a reanimated corpse? Yay! :D
Thanks for the great update.

I enjoy the uncommon aspects of this thread: Africa in WW2 and an alt Italian role.

Thank you all very much. And thank you to all the readers out there as well!

I Wonder if Italians succeed in taking Sudan they could link up with Libya. They could bring some limited resupply to their colonies.
Wait and see ;)


Also a very Gordonesque fate for the British commander. Did the locals put their heads on pikes?
No, they didn't this time. Although they did drag their bodies through the streets. When the Duke of Aosta arrived, he ordered they be given a proper burial though.

Seems like its time for Mussolini to start bragging about his conquests.
Which would be quite typical for him, given that someone else had done the heavy lifting.

Tonight I'm going to reread the whole thread to put things back into context.
I'm going to give you a brief summary:

Two Italian submarines suffer terrible accidents, killing almost their entire crews, in March 1940 - POD. (OTL, these happened later on). The Duke of Aosta travels to Italy to meet with the families. There, he also meets Benny, and impresses him enough to give him a free hand in the theater, should war break out (OTL, Commando Supremo mandated a strict defensive posture for everyone). Benny also sends marginally more equipment and supplies, at the expense of the forces in Albania.

Butterflies result in both Italo Balbo (Italy) and Gaston Bilotte (France) avoiding their freak acciddents. With Bilotte not dead, the British commander Lord Gort takes a few days more to arrive at the conclusion that, contrary to orders, evacuation is required. As a result, most of the BEF gets trapped in Flanders.

Meanwhile in the Red Sea, the Italian Steamer Umbria (OTL scuttled to avoid capture) reaches Massawa, along with the critical supplies it was carrying (especially lots of 250kg aircraft bombs). The mini naval battle that takes place sees the British lose one of their two cruisers in the area and two destroyers, whilst Italy suffers one destroyer damaged.

On land, the Duke of Aosta proceeds with his OTL plan of acting offensively, hoping to even reach EGYPT!!! to ensure resupply. There are a bunch of border battles won by Italy thanks to surprise and a huge disparity in numbers (but even there, they suffer worse casualties), as well as an almost bloodless takeover of Djibouti, which surrenders shortly after Petain's government had done the same.

The Italians send an armed merchant cruiser towards the Indian Ocean, hoping to draw off most of the remaining British fleet (which it does) but still hoping it escapes (which it doesn't). They also send a minor infantry force up the coast towards Port Sudan as bait, which the British fall for. With their enemy out of position, the Italians land in Port Sudan and take it. This causes a political crisis in Khartoum, which is only worsened by the fact that Italy's best formation is sent in a mad dash towards the capital. The Sudanese rise up, and the British retreat with whatever they have left north of Khartoum.
 

Insider

Banned
Two Italian submarines suffer terrible accidents, killing almost their entire crews, in March 1940 - POD. (OTL, these happened later on). The Duke of Aosta travels to Italy to meet with the families. There, he also meets Benny, and impresses him enough to give him a free hand in the theater, should war break out (OTL, Commando Supremo mandated a strict defensive posture for everyone). Benny also sends marginally more equipment and supplies, at the expense of the forces in Albania.


Since we are at this point. How the other submarines are going? They are based in perfect position to hunt in the Red Sea. They could block the whole shipping to Suez Canal cutting of the whole Egypt from supplies (except what could be brought via deserts of Arabia, good luck with that) The Brits would have to bring in the full ASW suite to this site, to bring all those tanks and gun required for Operation Compass. (Thats a lot of transports.)

Even if the crews are dead, if those damaged subs were salvaged, repaired, and the new crews could be flown from Libya.

The destroyers and MAS boats could do raid from Massawa to further distrupt enemy war effort. They could also try to mine aproaches to British bases
 
Around the same time that the Duke of Aosta was enjoying unexpected succes in Sudan, Italian forces were amassing in two other locations, ready to strike British positions. The first was the Libyan border with Egypt – here 9 infantry divisions and an assortment of other troops belonging to the 10th Army were stationed. Despite suggestions (1) from Graziani (the Commander-in-Chief of the Italian General Staff), Italo Balbo chose to cannibalize all of his formations for transports and heavy weapons and concentrate them on a smaller, more mobile force. This would take the form of two fully motorized infantry divisions and three motorized Libyan battalions attached to the ‘Comando Carri Armati della Libia’, which comprised 70 M11/39 and 37 M13/40 medium tanks organized in two battalions plus a further six other battalions of L3 tankettes. The medium tanks and the Libyan infantry battalions formed the ‘Maletti Group’, whilst five of the six of the L3 battalions were attached to the two infantry divisions. Balbo’s initial plan was for the main force to advance along the coastal road whilst the Maletti Group performed a wide flanking maneuver on the southern side of the Halfaya Pass. Lacking adequate maps and navigation equipment for desert travel, the Maletti Group got lost on its way to the jumping off point, forcing Balbo to attach it to the main force (2). Soon afterwards, the combined Italian force pushed east along the coastal road, aiming for the Halfaya Pass.

The British had divided their covering force into two, expecting an advance on both sides of the escarpment and were caught off-guard by the unexpected concentration of Italian forces. The southern force, which included the 1st Royal Tank Regiment, hastily began redeploying north, but would arrive too late to take part in the battle (3). The only fighting of note though took place when a small British tank force of three platoons got caught off and massacred by the Maletti Group (4) – other than that, both forces exchanged only long range fire, with limited overall casualties. (5)

After taking Sidi Barani and pausing for a few days, Italo Balbo pushed his force further east, reaching the main British position at Mersa Matruh. In this, the fact that a small force had been used and that the supply depots had been brought forward following the embarrasing experience in Tunisia certainly helped, but even so, the logistics were stretched to breaking point. Fortunately for him, the British however had chosen to make a stand at Mersa Matruh, where their main defensive positions lay. The Italian assaulted their opponents head-on, relying on their sheer weight of numbers to carry them through. Despite inflincting far more casualties than they were receiving, British forces were nonetheless getting severely attrited by the constant frontal attacks launched at them. Unwilling to comitt to a slugging match that nullified the increased mobility of his forces, Wavell ordered a short retreat east (6). Balbo would have pursued him, but it was simply beyond his logistical capacity. Therefor, content with having given his opponents a bloody nose, the Italian commander ordered a halt. Mersa Matruh would mark the furthest point east the Italians would get in their invasion of Egypt.

1 - of course OTL Graziani got to be in command and carried through with his ideas
2 - OTL
3 - also OTL
4 - nearly happened OTL; here increased Italian mobility leads to this outcome
5 - 11 armored cars and 22 tanks lost for the British, 12 more then OTL; 500 killed and wounded for the Italians
6 - a wide counterattack by his armour was also in the cards, although he probably feared the main line would crack under the pressure
 
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Since we are at this point. How the other submarines are going?
They didn't have much luck OTL.

They are based in perfect position to hunt in the Red Sea. They could block the whole shipping to Suez Canal cutting of the whole Egypt from supplies (except what could be brought via deserts of Arabia, good luck with that) The Brits would have to bring in the full ASW suite to this site, to bring all those tanks and gun required for Operation Compass. (Thats a lot of transports.)

Even if the crews are dead, if those damaged subs were salvaged, repaired, and the new crews could be flown from Libya.

The destroyers and MAS boats could do raid from Massawa to further distrupt enemy war effort. They could also try to mine aproaches to British bases

Next update will also include naval operations. I don't want to give away any spoilers, but let's just say the Red Sea Flotilla has been wanked pretty thoroughly already.

The invasion of Egypt goes as per OTL but does Balbo die from friendly fire?
No on both counts - the invasion of Egypt went much better than OTL, precisely because Balbo didn't die and get replaced by Graziani.

Keep it up, thanks for continuing!
Thank you.
 

Driftless

Donor
I'm enjoying the timeline, with greater Italian successes.

Perhaps out-of-scope for what your plan is for the timeline, but do you see your Italian command considering the lessons-learned, so far? For example, the L3/33 tankettes are obsolescent and out-classed in most situations. What's the replacement criteria?

I see your working on naval operations. Any plans for the MAS boats? The Red Sea/Gulf of Aden should have been very fertile hunting areas for them.
 
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Insider

Banned
The obsolescence of the L3 was well understood by Regio Esertico. They just tried to make something out of the machines they had. They managed some degree of success in anti-insurgency operation. Some them were updated with Anti-tank gun or flametrowers but the design offered limited chance for update.
The L6/40 was developed too late, and produced in limited numbers, but was excelent light tank.
The obscolescence of the italian planes was another kettle of fish. The process of introducing new machines took at least half a year since first flight. Moreover Italians had troubles with building sufficiently powerfull engines, and had to use german ones.
(why? I would be happy to learn)
 

Driftless

Donor
The obsolescence of the L3 was well understood by Regio Esertico. They just tried to make something out of the machines they had. They managed some degree of success in anti-insurgency operation. Some them were updated with Anti-tank gun or flametrowers but the design offered limited chance for update.
The L6/40 was developed too late, and produced in limited numbers, but was excelent light tank.
The obscolescence of the italian planes was another kettle of fish. The process of introducing new machines took at least half a year since first flight. Moreover Italians had troubles with building sufficiently powerfull engines, and had to use german ones.
(why? I would be happy to learn)

I realize comparing automobile-engines to aero-engines is like comparing apples to oranges; but the Italians made some extraordinary auto engines from early on till the present. Engineering skill and technology didn't seem to be the issue. Was the disconnect in production capability and capitalization for aero-engine manufacture?
 
When can we expect the next update? The L3 wasn't any more obsolete than the Bren Carrier - if it is viewed as a machine gun carrier (suitable for supporting infantry) rather than as a tank. Maybe it should have been modified as a munitions and weapons carrier like the Bren carrier. Certainly it was useless as a tank except against tribesmen.
 

Driftless

Donor
When can we expect the next update? The L3 wasn't any more obsolete than the Bren Carrier - if it is viewed as a machine gun carrier (suitable for supporting infantry) rather than as a tank. Maybe it should have been modified as a munitions and weapons carrier like the Bren carrier. Certainly it was useless as a tank except against tribesmen.

Did the L3 have sufficient performance to serve as a light weight artillery tractor(47mm/75mm)?

Was there enough "wiggle-room" in the desgin to expand the hull superstructure - to make it a little more spacious for either the Universal carrier or tractor role?
 
When can we expect the next update?

Today!!!! Or tomorrow, depending on when I finish my work. I just finished moving to Austria, and, as you can guess, it pretty much took all of my remaining spare time. However, now that that's done, onward with the TL!!!

Fun fact - the Italians, both OTL and ITTL also had, in addition to the L3s (which, had they been smart, they would have outfitted with flamethrowers earlier and en masse) also a number of medium tanks. Of course, OTL they sat on their asses without doing much due to Commando Supremo ordering an all-out defensive stance despite the Duke of Aosta's wishes. ITTL though...
 
One of the Duke of Aosta’s great hopes was that, through his own actions, he could bring about a favorable end to the war – in hindsight, the impossibility of such an outcome is obvious, but, at the time, he saw things differently. Following his entry in Karthoum, he had been sending out feelers to the British through his contacts in the Vatican, but to no avail. Desperate to achieve something, he decided a goodwill gesture towards his enemies might be sufficient, and, as fate would have it, such an opportunity lay right at his feet. More exactly, it took the form of a rag-tag British force formed around a few companies of the Worchestershire regiment and assorted units, withdrawing up the coast after having taken out the Italian force they were sent to destroy (only to find out it was actually a diversion meant to get them out of Port Sudan in time for the landing). Their only means of escape lay in reaching the small port of Suakin, just south of Port Sudan, and then (unlike Lord Kitchener who survived a siege in the port city back when the previous Mahdi had risen up against the British) being evacuated north to Egypt.

image.jpg

Suakin Island, at the center of the small gulf protecting the ancient harbour​


Despite Italian forces being far nearer to their destination then they were, the British reached Suakin just ahead of the Italian column and had time to load everyone abourd the Royal Navy ships which came in to support. At the time viewed as a sign of Italian incompetence, only later did they find out it was actually deliberate.

Even so, the Duke of Aosta was no nearer to achieving his peace then he was before the Suakin evacuation. Rebuffed by the British, he came to the conclusion that the only way to end the war was through enough battlefield victories. Unfortunately for him, in order to defeat the British, he first had to reach them, something which, given the stalling of Italo Balbo’s advance into Egypt and his own chronic shortages of fuel, spare parts, rubber tires and vechicles (a situation which the mad dash across the Sudanese grasslands only worsened, dramatically in fact) now seemed all but impossible.

Unable to advance further on land, the Italian commander decided it was time to confront the British at sea. To this end, he decided to make full use of the loot caputed in French Djibouti and employ them in a creative fashion. The supply of naval mines the French left behind began to trickle in from its storage warehouse and into the narrow waters of the Bab el Mandeb strait, as every night, small fishing boats made their way as close to the British positions as possbile before dropping their deadly cargo into the water. When a convoy finally struck one of the the mines, the British dispatched a couple of minesweepers, only to have them come under fire from artillery on the shore, none other than the French coastal guns, which the Italians had painstakingly dismounted and dragged into position in great secrecy.

To deal with the problem, the Royal Navy sent in a squadron from Alexandria, including a battleship, only to have them spotted by a lurking submarine just south of the Suez – by the time the fleet reached the Bab El-Mandeb, the Italian guns had already been moved inland. As soon as they returned to Alexandria, the guns were brought back and the mines started being planted once more. A frustrated Cunningham pressured the crew of the French battleship Lorraine to join the Free French forces. Some accepted, some refused and were replaced by British sailors or Frenchmen from other ships. Thus, with a mixed crew and a couple of escorts, the Lorraine was sent to guard the straits. The hodge-podge nature of the operation predictably led to disaster, as the Lorraine struck a mine, was torpedoed once by an Italian submarine and once by a destroyer and also received two bomb hits, forcing the Royal Navy to tow the crippled ship back to Egypt.

attachment-4.jpg

French Battleship Lorraine before setting out into the Red Sea​

With mines, coastal artillery, hit-and-run attacks by the Italian Red Sea flottila and bomber strikes regularly attacking the convoys supplying Wavell’s forces, 8th Army risked having its supply lines cut off, a fact not lost on Churchill. However, he had a plan…
 
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