The Italian Wars

Outside of a war over Brittany, I don't want France to be in anymore wars than OTL till TTL's 40's Years War. Sooo, I don't know if France should win so soon... Again, I'll make a post later saying what I want. Too lazy to do it now. :p


Mmmh...I see. But a strong french foothold in northern Italy could effectively freeze any kind of "new" war you fear. With the Duchy of Milan under french control both the Republic of Venice and the swiss will remain fairly calm: they have a giant on their doorstep.

The french army in Italy is not strong enough to break another time the back of the spanish and the papal troops, but it's in a perfect situation to stall any offensive from the south. With Henry VII landing in the north France will be distracted for a while from the italian theatre of war - while providing a good starting point for an invasion several years later.



But you're lazy, so you'll probably never read this post :D
 
I would assume they would try to do just that with Milan, but it would be an unenviable situation, a hostile Milan caught between a hostile Genoa, Savoy, Venice and Hapsburg Austria.

Perhaps the French could try and court the Savoyards with Saluzzo (OTL it was French for a few decades before becoming apart of Savoy), Montferrat (was Spanish for three years before given to the Duke of Mantua) and some small bits of Genoa? I perhaps am in the mood to simplify the map of Italy, but I think France could be able to do so.

True, but then the entire premise of the Italian Wars stemmed from Innocent VIII offering the Neapolitan throne up to Charles VIII, a territory that was ruled by a cadet branch of the Tastamaras and inherited by the Hapsburgs.

Yes, but I still find claims to be silly. Must be from playing too much Crusader Kings. :rolleyes:

Again, that's debatable considering how French determine their success. Even then, considering the fact that in OTL France with the help of the Ottoman Empire invaded and occupied Genoa in 1553, perhaps the idea would not be too far off that they could just go and take all remaining Genoese lands.

Aye.

Mmmh...I see. But a strong french foothold in northern Italy could effectively freeze any kind of "new" war you fear. With the Duchy of Milan under french control both the Republic of Venice and the swiss will remain fairly calm: they have a giant on their doorstep.

Eh, if you think so.

The french army in Italy is not strong enough to break another time the back of the spanish and the papal troops, but it's in a perfect situation to stall any offensive from the south. With Henry VII landing in the north France will be distracted for a while from the italian theatre of war - while providing a good starting point for an invasion several years later.

Yes, the English will be have to more proactive as how else will they get Brittany? ;)

But you're lazy, so you'll probably never read this post :D

That hurts, deep down. :(

(making general outline for Italy now)
 
The end result of the Italian wars (territorially)
  • France controls Milan, Genoa and Corsica directly
  • Savoy controls Saluzzo and Montferrat (and is loyal to France for making the map slightly better)
  • Naples is under the rule of a closely related Bourbon (At first brother and later on cousin to the King of France)
  • The Habsburgs control Sardinia and Sicily (and stay up every night dreaming of Cotoletta)

Thoughts on remaining bits of Italy:
  • What about the Republic of Siena? Would it still exist, antagonistic to Florence? I may just be a lazy cartographer, but perhaps they still are defeated by the Spanish/Florentines? I know I haven't given a timeline, so in this case I suppose personal opinion will work. :)
  • I may be shoe horning this as well, but perhaps Lucca is also eaten by the Florentines? cougheasiermapcough
  • Would the Duchy of Modena still be created? I really dunno about this one...
  • (Perhaps the Duchies of Modena, Ferrara and Mantua agree to have one Duke to make an upside down V shaped personal union-nation for the lulz? :p)

Once more input is given I'll hash out the actual (basic) backstory to explain it. :)
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
The end result of the Italian wars (territorially)
  • France controls Milan, Genoa and Corsica directly
  • Savoy controls Saluzzo and Montferrat (and is loyal to France for making the map slightly better)
  • Naples is under the rule of a closely related Bourbon (At first brother and later on cousin to the King of France)
  • The Habsburgs control Sardinia and Sicily (and stay up every night dreaming of Cotoletta)

Thoughts on remaining bits of Italy:
  • What about the Republic of Siena? Would it still exist, antagonistic to Florence? I may just be a lazy cartographer, but perhaps they still are defeated by the Spanish/Florentines? I know I haven't given a timeline, so in this case I suppose personal opinion will work. :)
  • I may be shoe horning this as well, but perhaps Lucca is also eaten by the Florentines? cougheasiermapcough
  • Would the Duchy of Modena still be created? I really dunno about this one...
  • (Perhaps the Duchies of Modena, Ferrara and Mantua agree to have one Duke to make an upside down V shaped personal union-nation for the lulz? :p)

Once more input is given I'll hash out the actual (basic) backstory to explain it. :)

Heh, that makes map making a whole lot simpler now doesn't it?

- No matter how you look at it, Florence and Siena will still be at odds. The only difference is if the map you will make is correct, it'll still exist since Siena is a nominal ally of the French. While Florence under the Medici are allied with Spain and the Empire. If the events lead to a largely French-dominated Italy (either conquest or by there SoI) then chances are they will be an independent Siennese state.

-In the case of the Republic of Lucca, which was neutral and probably independent at the time of the Italian Wars, Florence could make an attempt to try and claim it for their own, after all, Lucca was a part of the old Margraviate of Tuscany, and it was at one point IOTL sold to the Florentines.

-As for Modena, Modena was already created, since 1452 to be precise. As to who would rule it though, well you got me there.
 
Heh, that makes map making a whole lot simpler now doesn't it?

Quiet.

The only difference is if the map you will make is correct, it'll still exist since Siena is a nominal ally of the French.

Yes, I figured. I was mostly kidding about making the map look better, as the HRE is still um, the HRE....

In the case of the Republic of Lucca, which was neutral and probably independent at the time of the Italian Wars, Florence could make an attempt to try and claim it for their own, after all, Lucca was a part of the old Margraviate of Tuscany, and it was at one point IOTL sold to the Florentines.

The way I see it, there would be an additional Italian War after the French win, since the Habsburgs would be all kinds of mad not having Italy. (like OTL France...) The Republic of Lucca could then ally with France, and be eaten by Florence. Or maybe, more crazily, it joins Florence peaceably. ;)

As for Modena, Modena was already created, since 1452 to be precise. As to who would rule it though, well you got me there.

I really thought that it was made in the 1500s for some reason. Oh, I know why! I was thinking of the Duchy of Parma. I should really get more sleep before posting on here. Anyway, would the Duchy of Parma be made ITTL?
 
I compiled a list of the territorial changes in Italy compared to OTL that have been worked out so far. Thoughts?

  • Saluzzo - It was occupied by the French in 1548 and remained in their possestion till 1601 when it was given to Savoy. ITTL the French give it to them eariler I suppose.
  • Montferrat - It was OTL given to the Duke of Mantua (Charles V being the nice man he is) in 1536 upon the death of the final Marquis, John George. However, Savoy had a claim to the area and it wasn't till the end of the final Italian war that the Duke of Mantua was recognized as the proper ruler of the area. Therefore, giving it to Savoy will be a piece of cake, they have a claim. :)
  • Genoa/Corsica - France OTL ate it up for awhile but that didn't last. ITTL, it does.
  • Milan - Pretty easy, France wants it and have a claim to it.
  • Mantua - Deprived of Montferrat, perhaps some intermarriage with the Dukes of Modena and Ferrara?
  • Parma - As Milan will very likely being the hands of the French by the 1540s, Parma won't get created as France will be Protestant by then. (dun dun dun)
  • Lucca - To make up for not getting Siena, Florence noms up Lucca for some reason. Perhaps Lucca allies against the Emperor during the wars?
  • Naples - Not directly ruled by France, but a cadet branch. My reasoning for this is two fold. One, I do not want France to get too strong, secondly, France ITTL is going to go Protestant and I do not want to work out the head aches with the Pope so close, along with the two Papal enclaves in Naples. Therefore a relative of the King will be given the Kingdom, who remains Catholic. Perhaps Francis, Duke of Guise? If not him, he gets offed before his son is born... As a side note, Avignon gets nom'd.

Cheers
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
The Duchy of Parma (which was founded in 1545) would be created from Milanese territory for the illegitimate son of Pope Paul III, Pier Luigi Farnese. Now that was original timeline when the Hapsburgs owned Spain. France probably will allow the creation of Parma, since Paul was probably more aligned with France than with the Emperor. (though it depends on if they hold Milan at the time.)

As for Naples, should Guise gets offed before he get a son, and depending on when said events would take place, it could be passed to the House of Mountmorency or alternatively, another branch of the House of Lorraine
 
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I don't know if France will be terribly chummy with the Paul III or any Pope as I'm planning on them becoming Protestant in the late 1530s. Thus the likelihood of Parma being creating are pretty low. Perhaps the treaty ending the Italian wars has the land that made up Parma be given to the Papal states as compensation for Avignon? (Maybe the two Papal enclaves in Naples as well...)
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Good point. But if France is to become Protestant (I think the Huguenots were Calvinist) then perhaps it would be difficult. Plus if history went the way it was it would put then at even greater odds with Philip II should he become King of Spain, and would also serve to give Protestants in the Holy Roman Empire someone to find backing.

Then again, going protestant would surely piss off a lot of Italians, the majority of them Roman Catholic though.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Everything else seems secure, but my only issue is how to deal with Naples after France goes Protestant. Surely, there has to be a French-Neapolitan split somewhere down the road.
 
Stop ruining my plans! :D

Yes, Naples will very likely turn on France later on. That's why I suggested the Dukes of Guise to become the King, OTL one of them headed the Catholic League during the French Religious Wars.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Well I like to be thorough when it comes to these things.

I suppose when it comes down to it. I believe that everything else should work itself out in the end. Depending on when the PoD lies, I might try this scenario in Europa Universalis III.
 
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