The Isles.

During the marching season, the government of Billy West came out strongly in favour of the marchers

Should be Harry West, no?

My dad will be very happy that the politician I'm named after is now Prime Minister of the UK.

Is the UK still the United Kingdom of Great Britain, or is it now the United Kingdom of England and Wales?
 
Just to point out, if Scotland became independent, from what I have read, it would be immediately followed by the Orkneys and Shetlands following suit, and declare they were going to take a very substantial part of the oil with them.

It may seem crazy now, but the islanders had very little love for Edinburgh, and there were relatively few SNP supporters.

As a side note, I suspect that you've killed Labour as an electoral force in what is now England. I don't really so how the party won't split in the aftermath, and the Tories will tear them apart at the election.
In the October 1974 election of otl in the constituency of Orkney and Shetland, the votes were as follows;

  • Jo Grimmond(Liberal) 9,877
  • H.Firth(SNP) 3,025
  • C.Donaldson(Cons) 2,495
  • H.J.G Wills(Labour) 2,175
This is hardly different from other seats in the highlands. Orkney and Shetland would remain Scottish because, well, they are Scottish. They really are the Scottish Cornwall. As to your point about the oil, I am assuming you are aware they did in otl get a special deal with regards to the oil? I see no reason why that would change in ttl. I also should point out I speak as someone with nationalist relatives in that neck of the woods.

Just for extra effect, here is the result from the 1975 election there in this atl.

  • Jo Grimmond(Liberal) 8,567
  • H.Firth(SNP) 4,201
  • C.Donaldson(Cons) 2,010
  • H.J.G Wills(Labour) 1,980
As to the situation in England, Labour has not divided totally yet, and the Tories are still in a state of tearing themselves apart over Northern Ireland. Both parties are in conflict over europe, to be short the situation is fluid. Shore has taken advantage of the situation, swept to power offering stability and a period of calm.

People have taken the message.

stateless englishman said:
Should be Harry West, no?

My dad will be very happy that the politician I'm named after is now Prime Minister of the UK.

Is the UK still the United Kingdom of Great Britain, or is it now the United Kingdom of England and Wales?
Well spotted! Consider it amended.

Also, officially, it is the United Kingdom of Southern Britain.
 
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cumbria

Banned
May-December 1976.
Independence day could hardly have been any different for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Across Scotland, May 1st was met with wild celebrations and international attention. In Northern Ireland, the international attention was there due to the fact there were no celebrations. Indeed, the tension on the streets of Belfast, Londonderry, Armagh could be cut with a knife. The fact that English soldiers continued to patrol the streets was another factor in the tension. Through some miracle though, the tensions never erupted into violence in the streets.

Over the first few months of independence as the new Scottish government settled in at their new home, New Parliament House on Calton Hill in Edinburgh, the opening priorities of the new nationalist regime was to arrange for the first Scottish General Election, whilst at the same time establishing a Constitutional Convention, which would oversee the type of constitutional arrangement would be put in place for the new nation.

Unfortunately, the first real task was at hand for the new regime, with the Cod Wars ongoing with Iceland. Scotland was forced to use both frigates it had gained as part of the defence of the Scottish fishing fleet against the Icelanders. By the end of June, the Icelandic government of Geir Hallgrímsson stated that unless the Scots accepted the Icelandic position, the NATO base at Keflavik would be closed down. Wolfe stated bluntly that as Scotland was not in NATO, if this was to force international pressure, and the Scots were forced to back down, RScAF Machrahanish would also be closed.

This game of diplomatic pressure forced the US Government to intervene, and it was agreed that talks were to be called, to be held in Norway between June and September of the year.

Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland the situation worsened as the summer went on. During the marching season, the government of Harry West came out strongly in favour of the marchers, giving the Orangemen in places like Drumcree government support at the expense of the local population, even affording them an RUC cordon to ensure the march went off smoothly. This caused an increase in nationalist sentiment however an the feeling was in the air that things could explode at any moment.

This prediction was to come true on August 19th, the day after the last UK troops left Northern Ireland. In a co-ordinated assault, four cabinet ministers were murdered by the IRA and five bombs went off in loyalist areas. A press release was given to the New York Times declaring that the Provisional IRA was to take arms against ‘he illegitimate government in the north of Ireland’.

In England, things were hardly going smoothly either. In March, Wilson lost his majority in the Commons after a by-election defeat to the Conservatives. In addition, his party was tearing itself apart over the referendum on the Common Market that was forthcoming as part of the promise that was made during his election victory the previous year. Against the background of Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving the union, there was the beginning of a feeling of English nationalism in the air, giving the no campaign who were running a nationalist campaign a strong advantage.

This led to, by the narrowest of margins, a victory by the no campaign on 5th August, by 50.12%-49.88%. Wilson, defeated and broken resigned as Prime Minister, to be replaced by Peter Shore, who had been a leading figure in the no campaign. Shore, enjoying his honeymoon as Prime Minister, went for broke, calling a general election, the fourth in two years, for October 7th.

This he won with a majority of twenty, defeating the leader of the opposition, Margaret Thatcher, who promptly resigned, to be replaced by Willie Whitelaw.

On September 7th, the negotiations between Scotland and Iceland were completed. It was agreed that the Icelandic fishing rights would be extended to 100 nautical miles, from 50. Both sides claimed triumph as the Icelandic government were initially holding out for 200. This was, however a rare moment of sunshine for the SNP administration. As the year progressed, in the knowledge that the oil would not be coming through for a few years, money was running scarce and unemployment was rising. The government decided to cover this by increasing borrowing whilst at the same time increasing taxation, a move which led to further problems and an even heavier over reliance on the public sector.

The one blessing was that the Clyde was in itself busy, with the shipyards busy working on contracts for the North Sea. The SNP ignored calls to move the industry east to save money, instead subsidising the industry further.

A hassle was also created over the new Central Bank of Scotland, whose headquarters was being built in Holyrood, when it emerged in November that the project was running three times over the expected budget already. When questioned on it in Parliament, Wolfe gave the famous reply “Does the leader of the opposition not trust Scottish bankers?”

The final bill of the year of the new Scottish Parliament was brought about by the Scottish Conservatives in an attempt to be more nationalist than the SNP, they proposed that upon the death of the Queen, any future King or Queen of Scotland must be a citizen of Scotland, and that furthermore the current heir should be declared regent. This passed Parliament narrowly, passing into law by a single vote. The Duke of Fife thus became Regent of Scotland.

In Northern Ireland,. The result of the IRA declaration of war on the government of Northern Ireland led to a heavy handed response by the Northern Irish government. They declared a raft of measures including a compulsory identity card for all Northern Irish citizens, the suspension of habeus corpus for suspected terrorists and the right of search for the RUC in any home. In addition to this, a national service act was declared, of which all Northern Irish males aged 17-19 were expected to take part. Anyone who refused would be put on a suspects list by the administration.

Despite international condemnation, no sanctions were placed on the government as there was genuine abroad for the terrible loss of life in the Shankhill Road and Omagh bombings. The funds for the IRA grew steadily larger across the Atlantic.

This was not to end soon, as was confirmed on Christmas day, when celebrating Christmas day with a stroll outside Hillsborough Castle, Harry West, the first Prime Minister of an independent Northern Ireland was shot dead.

English and Welsh Parliament after Scottish and N Irish independence (not counting by-elections).

Labour 278
Conservative 261
Liberal 10
 
Last edited:

cumbria

Banned
In the October 1974 election of otl in the constituency of Orkney and Shetland, the votes were as follows;

  • Jo Grimmond(Liberal) 9,877
  • H.Firth(SNP) 3,025
  • C.Donaldson(Cons) 2,495
  • H.J.G Wills(Labour) 2,175
This is hardly different from other seats in the highlands. Orkney and Shetland would remain Scottish because, well, they are Scottish. They really are the Scottish Cornwall. As to your point about the oil, I am assuming you are aware they did in otl get a special deal with regards to the oil? I see no reason why that would change in ttl. I also should point out I speak as someone with nationalist relatives in that neck of the woods.

Just for extra effect, here is the result from the 1975 election there in this atl.

  • Jo Grimmond(Liberal) 8,567
  • H.Firth(SNP) 4,201
  • C.Donaldson(Cons) 2,010
  • H.J.G Wills(Labour) 1,980
As to the situation in England, Labour has not divided totally yet, and the Tories are still in a state of tearing themselves apart over Northern Ireland. Both parties are in conflict over europe, to be short the situation is fluid. Shore has taken advantage of the situation, swept to power offering stability and a period of calm.

People have taken the message.


Well spotted! Consider it amended.

Also, officially, it is the United Kingdom of Southern Britain.

Jo Grimonds Liberals in Shetland and Orkney were regarded as the defacto nationalist party there as Grimond moved motions for devolution for Orkney and Shetland in the Commons.
Opposed I might add by the SNP.
 
Jo Grimonds Liberals in Shetland and Orkney were regarded as the defacto nationalist party there as Grimond moved motions for devolution for Orkney and Shetland in the Commons.
Opposed I might add by the SNP.
They stay in Scotland as per otl. I have little else to add.
 
January-June 1977
The fall out from the assassination of West was huge. Following a straight leadership contest, James Molyneaux became the new leader of the newly renamed Ulster National Party and the new Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. His first move in office was to declare that the culprits would be “tracked down to the end of the earth and they will be brought to justice”. This poured fire onto the flames, causing riots over the new year period across the province, which had to be kept in check by the new Northern Irish Army. Over the period, there were sixty-two deaths, but only two men were ever brought to trial for murder, both Catholics.

Meanwhile, things were going awry in the SNP administration, with Donald Stewart resigning as Home Secretary over efficiency savings which would have meant 2,000 fewer police officers across Scotland. In his resignation speech, he decried the lack of leadership from the Prime Minister, Billy Wolfe stating that he was being influenced too much by factional elements in his cabinet.

This was a disaster for the SNP as the election was less than six months away. What they needed now, more than anything was unity across the board. That this was lacking was a major problem in their campaign to be the first elected government across the board in Scotland. Opinion polls were fluid, but on average, by the beginning of February, the Labour Party were on around 32%, the SNP on 31%, the Tories on 24%, the Liberals being on 9%. If things carried on in this manner, Scotland was in for a period of chaos.

Peter Shore had managed to calm things down in the United Kingdom. For the first few months of his premiership, there was not much political news. This was the case until March.

British Leyland, a part nationalised company, was a major employer in Birmingham, but was costing the government a huge amount of money simply to keep the plant open. The problems were exacerbated by a strike which was engineered on site.

The government, following frantic, but unsuccessful talks with the trade unions, declared that they had no option but to scale back the workforce in Longbridge. This caused a major strike, which threatened to escalate.
Shore declared that he would not be bullied and called for a meeting of the cabinet over the issue. This resulted in a heated argument within the cabinet over how the situation could be resolved, and upon its conclusion, the resignation of Denis Healey from the cabinet, declaring in his resignation speech that he feared that "what the Prime Minister intends as action is indeed inactivity".

The resolution was for a national commission on pay to be introduced and agreement that the broad principal should be implemented in Leyland that pay should be linked to production. Further talks were to be held with the unions, but on these terms.

Belfast was slowly getting into a worse position. By the end of March, certain areas of Northern Ireland were no-go areas for anyone with non-republican sentiments and during the period, the IRA were continuing a guerrilla war against the loyalist establishment.

In response on March 17th, St.Patricks Day, Norman Hutton made the Londonderry declaration, establishing a government paramilitary to counter the threat of the IRA. In addition to this, internment for suspected terrorists was to be brought back and a curfew was to be put in place in certain areas of the Province, to be defined by the RUC.

This was met, the following day by a show of force, with tanks and troops flooding areas such as West Belfast, rounding up suspects. All in all, some 3,070 men and 765 women were arrested and sent to detention centres in the Maze and a newly built facility near Larne.

This was met with international condemnation, and the threat of sanctions was ramped up. In the Irish Republic, demands were put in place for the government to intervene, but they were prohibited from moving troops north by the terms of Northern Irish independence in which the UK promised to defend Northern Ireland from external threats. As a result, in covert actions, the Dublin government began channelling funds and arms to the IRA.

At the end of March, the first general elections of Scotland and Northern Ireland were both called. Both polls were to be held on May 5th.
The Scottish campaign was an open one, with all sides pushing strongly that individual votes could turn the tide in their favour. Labour ran a strongly left-wing campaign, pushing for a retention of the nationalised industries in Scotland and calls for cuts in the defence budget to pay for increasing the Home Office budget. Controversially, their deputy leader, Willie Hamilton was openly calling for a republic at the same time.

The SNP pushed strongly as they did the year before the fact that the Labour government had attempted to hide the McCrone Report from the Scots. They argued that once the oil money began flowing, they Scottish economy would take off and that any cuts were temporary. This was as nothing as compared to the Conservative campaign, which attempted to be more nationalist than the nationalists. Teddy Taylor, the party leader argued that it was the Conservatives who brought about the return of the Scottish monarchy through the Prince Regent, and that they were the only party who would break from what he called “the cosy left-wing consensus”. The Liberals ran a very targeted campaign, attempting to make a breakthrough in several constituencies.

Overall, all the parties were successful in part, and this was reflected in the outcome. The Labour Party finished first in seats, with forty-two, they were closely followed by the SNP, who finished above Labour by 1% in the popular vote on forty-one seats. The Conservatives finished third with thirty-five seats and the Liberals last with twenty-three seats. Three independents were elected.

Following a fortnight of bartering, an unlikely outcome was arrived at, with the Labour Party going into a coalition government with the SNP. Bruce Millan, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party would become the Prime Minister, but the SNP would get an equal number of seats to Labour in cabinet. Billy Wolfe, the outgoing Prime Minister announced that he would be retiring as the leader of the SNP, to be replaced by George Reid, who became Deputy Prime Minister.

The Northern Irish campaign was somewhat different. Sinn Fein announced that it was their intention to boycott the elections and in this they were following talks by the moderate SDLP, whose leader Gerry Fitt made the point that with the curfew in nationalist areas alongside the heavy restrictions being placed mainly on nationalists, he could not be confident of a fair election. This led to a straight fight between the Loyalist parties, with a fight to see who could be tougher on the IRA. This fight was won convincingly by the Ulster National Party of Molyneaux, with the Ulster Democratic Party of the Rev.Ian Paisley becoming the opposition.
As the situation developed, the Queens jubilee tour of Northern Ireland was cancelled.

The Irish Republic called for EEC sanctions against Northern Ireland, but they were defeated. Northern Irelands descent continued unabated.
 

cumbria

Banned
January-June 1977
The fall out from the assassination of West was huge. Following a straight leadership contest, James Molyneaux became the new leader of the newly renamed Ulster National Party and the new Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. His first move in office was to declare that the culprits would be “tracked down to the end of the earth and they will be brought to justice”. This poured fire onto the flames, causing riots over the new year period across the province, which had to be kept in check by the new Northern Irish Army. Over the period, there were sixty-two deaths, but only two men were ever brought to trial for murder, both Catholics.

Meanwhile, things were going awry in the SNP administration, with Donald Stewart resigning as Home Secretary over efficiency savings which would have meant 2,000 fewer police officers across Scotland. In his resignation speech, he decried the lack of leadership from the Prime Minister, Billy Wolfe stating that he was being influenced too much by factional elements in his cabinet.

This was a disaster for the SNP as the election was less than six months away. What they needed now, more than anything was unity across the board. That this was lacking was a major problem in their campaign to be the first elected government across the board in Scotland. Opinion polls were fluid, but on average, by the beginning of February, the Labour Party were on around 32%, the SNP on 31%, the Tories on 24%, the Liberals being on 9%. If things carried on in this manner, Scotland was in for a period of chaos.

Peter Shore had managed to calm things down in the United Kingdom. For the first few months of his premiership, there was not much political news. This was the case until March.

British Leyland, a part nationalised company, was a major employer in Birmingham, but was costing the government a huge amount of money simply to keep the plant open. The problems were exacerbated by a strike which was engineered on site.

The government, following frantic, but unsuccessful talks with the trade unions, declared that they had no option but to scale back the workforce in Longbridge. This caused a major strike, which threatened to escalate.
Shore declared that he would not be bullied and called for a meeting of the cabinet over the issue. This resulted in a heated argument within the cabinet over how the situation could be resolved, and upon its conclusion, the resignation of Denis Healey from the cabinet, declaring in his resignation speech that he feared that "what the Prime Minister intends as action is indeed inactivity".

The resolution was for a national commission on pay to be introduced and agreement that the broad principal should be implemented in Leyland that pay should be linked to production. Further talks were to be held with the unions, but on these terms.

Belfast was slowly getting into a worse position. By the end of March, certain areas of Northern Ireland were no-go areas for anyone with non-republican sentiments and during the period, the IRA were continuing a guerrilla war against the loyalist establishment.

In response on March 17th, St.Patricks Day, Norman Hutton made the Londonderry declaration, establishing a government paramilitary to counter the threat of the IRA. In addition to this, internment for suspected terrorists was to be brought back and a curfew was to be put in place in certain areas of the Province, to be defined by the RUC.

This was met, the following day by a show of force, with tanks and troops flooding areas such as West Belfast, rounding up suspects. All in all, some 3,070 men and 765 women were arrested and sent to detention centres in the Maze and a newly built facility near Larne.

This was met with international condemnation, and the threat of sanctions was ramped up. In the Irish Republic, demands were put in place for the government to intervene, but they were prohibited from moving troops north by the terms of Northern Irish independence in which the UK promised to defend Northern Ireland from external threats. As a result, in covert actions, the Dublin government began channelling funds and arms to the IRA.

At the end of March, the first general elections of Scotland and Northern Ireland were both called. Both polls were to be held on May 5th.
The Scottish campaign was an open one, with all sides pushing strongly that individual votes could turn the tide in their favour. Labour ran a strongly left-wing campaign, pushing for a retention of the nationalised industries in Scotland and calls for cuts in the defence budget to pay for increasing the Home Office budget. Controversially, their deputy leader, Willie Hamilton was openly calling for a republic at the same time.

The SNP pushed strongly as they did the year before the fact that the Labour government had attempted to hide the McCrone Report from the Scots. They argued that once the oil money began flowing, they Scottish economy would take off and that any cuts were temporary. This was as nothing as compared to the Conservative campaign, which attempted to be more nationalist than the nationalists. Teddy Taylor, the party leader argued that it was the Conservatives who brought about the return of the Scottish monarchy through the Prince Regent, and that they were the only party who would break from what he called “the cosy left-wing consensus”. The Liberals ran a very targeted campaign, attempting to make a breakthrough in several constituencies.

Overall, all the parties were successful in part, and this was reflected in the outcome. The Labour Party finished first in seats, with forty-two, they were closely followed by the SNP, who finished above Labour by 1% in the popular vote on forty-one seats. The Conservatives finished third with thirty-five seats and the Liberals last with twenty-three seats. Three independents were elected.

Following a fortnight of bartering, an unlikely outcome was arrived at, with the Labour Party going into a coalition government with the SNP. Bruce Millan, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party would become the Prime Minister, but the SNP would get an equal number of seats to Labour in cabinet. Billy Wolfe, the outgoing Prime Minister announced that he would be retiring as the leader of the SNP, to be replaced by George Reid, who became Deputy Prime Minister.

The Northern Irish campaign was somewhat different. Sinn Fein announced that it was their intention to boycott the elections and in this they were following talks by the moderate SDLP, whose leader Gerry Fitt made the point that with the curfew in nationalist areas alongside the heavy restrictions being placed mainly on nationalists, he could not be confident of a fair election. This led to a straight fight between the Loyalist parties, with a fight to see who could be tougher on the IRA. This fight was won convincingly by the Ulster National Party of Molyneaux, with the Ulster Democratic Party of the Rev.Ian Paisley becoming the opposition.
As the situation developed, the Queens jubilee tour of Northern Ireland was cancelled.

The Irish Republic called for EEC sanctions against Northern Ireland, but they were defeated. Northern Irelands descent continued unabated.

Was the Scottish Parliament elected under PR?
 

cumbria

Banned
I can see Teddy Taylors Conservatives leading a very populist campaign.
Taylor supported capital punishment, corporal punishment and opposed immigration.
 
Would the Scottish parliament oppose devolution for Shetland and Orkney?
No, but it wont happen in the meantime. I mean to say you are treating them as if they are one and the same. They are two groups of islands over 100 miles apart. They are only one UK Parliamentary constituency in otl as the size would be too small to justify otherwise.

They have two Scottish Parliamentary constituencies in ttl, one for Orkney and one for Shetland, both held by the Liberals(although in the '77 seat the SNP run the Liberals close in Orkney turning the seat somewhat more marginal). As to legal devolution, they have used the Scottish legal system for hundreds of years, so there is no need for that to be devolved.

They also have a special deal on the oil, in the form two seperate Orkney and Shetlands oil funds(Seperate to the Scottish National Oil fund for the Scottish government), where 2% of the Scottish revenue on oil will be invested and the income generated will be given to the local councils.

This means their councils in effect have more money to play with than any other local authority in Scotland, meaning they would be the lightest taxed part of Scotland, also being lighter taxed than the UK or Northern Ireland. This is a boon to local services.
cumbria said:
Was the Scottish Parliament elected under PR?
Not in this election, the constitutional conventions findings in the next update.
cumbria said:
I can see Teddy Taylors Conservatives leading a very populist campaign.
Taylor supported capital punishment, corporal punishment and opposed immigration.
I agree over capital punishment, corporal punishment was still in place in Scottish schools at this point, so there would be no need to push this. With respects immigration, that is a side issue at present, but will be brought up more as the timeline goes on.
 
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cumbria

Banned
No, but it wont happen in the meantime. I mean to say you are treating them as if they are one and the same. They are two groups of islands over 100 miles apart. They are only one UK Parliamentary constituency in otl as the size would be too small to justify otherwise.

Of course both Orkney and Shetland would want seperate Parliaments.
Neither are to small as the Faroe Islands is a good example.

They have two Scottish Parliamentary constituencies in ttl, one for Orkney and one for Shetland, both held by the Liberals(although in the '77 seat the SNP run the Liberals close in Orkney turning the seat somewhat more marginal). As to legal devolution, they have used the Scottish legal system for hundreds of years, so there is no need for that to be devolved.

I imagine both will want Udal law returned as by Udal law the adding of the Northern Isles to Scotland was illegal.
Indeed acording to the Udal society Neither Shetland nor Orkney has ever been officially incorporated into either Scotland or the UK.

http://www.udallaw.com/

They also have a special deal on the oil, in the form two seperate Orkney and Shetlands oil funds(Seperate to the Scottish National Oil fund for the Scottish government), where 2% of the Scottish revenue on oil will be invested and the income generated will be given to the local councils.

2% isnt much when I believe they would have over a third of Scottish oil if independent.

This means their councils in effect have more money to play with than any other local authority in Scotland, meaning they would be the lightest taxed part of Scotland, also being lighter taxed than the UK or Northern Ireland. This is a boon to local services.

With independence they could abolish income tax and VAT too.
 
Of course both Orkney and Shetland would want seperate Parliaments.
Neither are to small as the Faroe Islands is a good example.
There has not been a strong demand in otl, I mean to say, Jim Wallace has not been pushing it much, has he? Neither has Tavish Scott. As I say, this is being overplayed by you. There may grow a devolutionist sentiment, but the demand would not be straight away. As it goes, the SNP did at the period iotl back devolution to the islands, but it has not happened.

Also, the Faroes are not independent, simply a devolved part of Denmark.
cumbria said:
I imagine both will want Udal law returned as by Udal law the adding of the Northern Isles to Scotland was illegal.
Indeed acording to the Udal society Neither Shetland nor Orkney has ever been officially incorporated into either Scotland or the UK.

http://www.udallaw.com/
On my visits to Kirkwall, I have never heard mention of Udal law. As to the legality of the islands, this is not an issue. Scots law will be retained as it has been for hundreds of years.
2% isnt much when I believe they would have over a third of Scottish oil if independent.
Are you aware of the figures involved here? 2% of the North Sea Oil is a huge sum. It would keep the islanders secure for the rest of time. This is also far more than they get at present and far more than Scotland gets in the current set up.
 
Are there any unionist parties running in Scotland?
There was a Scottish Unionist Party, which broke from the Conservatives over the monarchy issue, but they never won a seat. One of the independents, Jack Glass backs the union strongly. Several MPs back the union individually.
 
They stay in Scotland as per otl. I have little else to add.

As a final point here, even if they stay, it will be against the will of the locals. They will declare independence, and the Scottish government will then have to refuse. What will they do then?

At this stage the Scottish were not popular in Orkney, and particularly Shetland, as a result of the population being essentially forced into serfdom by Scottish landlords, oddly enough, in the wake of the act of union, and having their language suppressed.
 
As a final point here, even if they stay, it will be against the will of the locals. They will declare independence, and the Scottish government will then have to refuse. What will they do then?

At this stage the Scottish were not popular in Orkney, and particularly Shetland, as a result of the population being essentially forced into serfdom by Scottish landlords, oddly enough, in the wake of the act of union, and having their language suppressed.
That wont happen. I disagree with the very premise of your point, so there is little more to discuss on the matter.
 

cumbria

Banned
There has not been a strong demand in otl, I mean to say, Jim Wallace has not been pushing it much, has he? Neither has Tavish Scott. As I say, this is being overplayed by you. There may grow a devolutionist sentiment, but the demand would not be straight away. As it goes, the SNP did at the period iotl back devolution to the islands, but it has not happened.

There was a big demand for devolution in OTL as I said.
Jo Grimond the MP for Shetland and Orkney in the 1970's during which your time line is set passed motions for it in the house on a number of occasions.
Each time voted against by the SNP.
The councils of the Shetland and Orkney Islands had acquired a taste for oil and freedom and they had swung deals with the oil and gas giants to contribute to local development funds.
Islanders feared the Scottish Assembly would attempt to get its hands on their oil wealth. Councillors preferred rule from Westminster to administration from Edinburgh.
Shetland and Orkney movements were formed to push for a self-rule settlement should islanders vote no in a referendum and the rest of Scotland vote yes.
This proved troublesome for the government. The late John Smith MP, then Minister of State at the Privy Council Office piloting the devolution proposals, noted "the Shetland Islands Council had been wining and dining Members extensively and had suborned some government MPs".
With the minority government facing defeat, a delegation of councillors met with Scottish Secretary Bruce Millan on February 8 for what are described as "frank" discussions in which the islands' Liberal MP, Jo Grimond, at tempted to steer a course between devolution and self-rule.
Mr Millan warned of a "legal nightmare" if the islands went their own way. He said: "It could not be assumed that specialist education or health services would be provided (by Edinburgh) given that the differences had been created by the deliberate actions' on the part of the island councils and the inhabitants."

In the devolution referendum in 1978 73% of islanders voted no against the Scottish assembly for these reasons.
If independence had come the Islanders would very likely have gone for independence themselves.
At the very least devolution.
The Orkney and Shetland Movement would be contesting elections.

Also, the Faroes are not independent, simply a devolved part of Denmark.

Who said they were independent?
We were talking about seperate parliaments.

On my visits to Kirkwall, I have never heard mention of Udal law. As to the legality of the islands, this is not an issue. Scots law will be retained as it has been for hundreds of years.

Not some thing that would come up in a pub conversation but I have no doubt the islanders would prefer their own legal system and oppose Scottish law.
Dont the Orcadians say when they visit Wisk "they are going to Scotland".

Are you aware of the figures involved here? 2% of the North Sea Oil is a huge sum. It would keep the islanders secure for the rest of time. This is also far more than they get at present and far more than Scotland gets in the current set up.

Im very aware hence why with the full oil wealth of independent Islands the Islanders would never have to pay any taxes again.
 

cumbria

Banned
Of course another alternative would be the Northern Isles voting to stay in the United Kingdom.
 
As a final point here, even if they stay, it will be against the will of the locals. They will declare independence, and the Scottish government will then have to refuse. What will they do then?

At this stage the Scottish were not popular in Orkney, and particularly Shetland, as a result of the population being essentially forced into serfdom by Scottish landlords, oddly enough, in the wake of the act of union, and having their language suppressed.

I don't see that, really. The Orkney and Shetland Independence Movement stood once in 1987, in place of the SNP, and got 14.5% of the vote, less than the SNP got in 1983. I think that in reality, while they may not support the SNP, you'll find it's a fringe that want independence. A good deal on oil revenues is fair, and that's what they've got.
 

cumbria

Banned
I think independence would do Shetland a lot of good. Take as an example the Faroese … Since they took charge of their affairs their population has risen sharply. Shetland's, in comparison, has dwindled.​
If we could prosper economically from it, I would vote yes in a second.​
The Scots and the English don't have too good a record in decision making as regards to Shetland so I cant see how we could be worse off under home rule.​
Before we were ransacked by the scots Shetland owned the waters out to the point where the bottom could no longer be reached ie the edge of the continental shelf …​
Several other small island groups, with less, or at least no more natural resources than Shetland would have ... seem to have sustained, and are sustaining, some even apparently prospering quite well, why not us?​
If the council was to give a damn about Shetland they would be trying to find out just how much Shetland pays to the Exchequer through income tax, buisness/corporation tax etc it would be an eye opener I'm sure.​
This figure was researched some 10/15 years ago, and far from being 'subsidy reliant', we were paying in a bloody sight more than we were getting out. Oil revenues to the Exchequer were excluded form the calculation.​
I'm all for dumping the Scotties...​
I was present at a meeting of the SNP in Pitlochry this was at a time that they had persuaded the Shetland Movement they would support our moves for independence. His Scottish majesty Alex Salmond when questioned about this and its effect on Scottish fishermen and oil was not fazed in the slightest as the waters around Orkney and Shetland would still belong to Scotland we would have 6 mile limit. Not what he told the Shetland Movement. The phrase “niver trust a scoty” was one I heard all the time when at the fishing, and after hearing that little #**# I understood the sentiment completely.​
Why is there a full Gaelic BBC program for a minority of some 1.5% of all Scottish people and just a daily half an hour in Shetlan, Orcadian or other Scots dialects???​
There have been 14 attempts to redeem the pawn and 14 times the scots have avoided the issue … so they know the islands dont belong to them.​
Man, I'm not a Scot.​
How can we expect politicians in Brussels, London and Edinburgh to make good decisions that will benefit places like Shetland when they're priority is to keep the urban conurbations ticking along and big business happy.​
From the mid 70s on we were taught a lot of "Scotish" history but none or blatantly wrong Shetland history.​
What little good ever came Shetland's way from goverments has always come from London, Edinburgh never did us one iota of good, and I've seen nothing from this current incarnation of Scots rulers that anything has changed since 1468.

Chief of Shetland

and

The Shetland Chief Sandy Cluness has called for autonomy from Scotland for the North Atlantic archipelago and its 22,000 population, at a time when Scottish independence from Westminster is being debated.

http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/5121-shetland-chief-calls-for-independence
 
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