The Iroquois League joins the Thirteen Colonies in the ARW

Maoistic

Banned
Inspired by the Native American nations thread. What happens to the Iroquois and the Thirteen Colonies if both join forces against the British alongside the French and Spanish?
 

althisfan

Banned
Inspired by the Native American nations thread. What happens to the Iroquois and the Thirteen Colonies if both join forces against the British alongside the French and Spanish?
It creates huge problems for both NY and Massachusetts (MA claims western NY). NY refused to let Vermont join the US for quite some time, I can see NY refusing to let the Iroquois become a 14th state. This is an extremely hard question what happens next.

The map below shows NY claims to western lands, east of the Illinois River, north of the Tennessee River, south of the Great Lakes, and west of the Appalachians. This claim of theirs was through Iroquois claims they appropriated. Also, this map shows the MA claim to western NY.

United_States_land_claims_and_cessions_1782-1802.png


This map shows the lands the Iroquois had after the Beaver Wars and before the Treaty of Stanwix which ended the Iroqouis portion of the ARW against the US.
5NationsExpansion.jpg
 
I'm no expert, not by far, but I would imagine it would possibly lead to slightly better attitudes towards the Iroquois at least, if not Native Americans in general, on the part of the colonists. They'd probably also receive some territory that has more respected boundaries, although where that territory would be i'm not sure. Maybe citizenship in the new American nation for those who fought with the revolutionaries? That's probably a stretch, but I could see it happening if their support proved pivotal enough at some point(s). All in all though, they still get screwed, arguably even worse than they did IOTL since they helped and still get the majority of their land stolen.
 
If the Iroquois become a state within the US, which I suppose is a possibility given that many of the Founding Fathers supported equal rights for Native Americans, I can see this opening up the possibility for other tribes getting statehood as well, especially the Five Civilized Tribes in the Deep South. This opens up some really interesting possibilities for an alternate US due to Native American culture having a stronger presence. The alternate Manifest Destiny would also be interesting.

However, why would the Iroquois even fight alongside the US in the first place? One of the reasons the 13 Colonies got ticked off at the British in the first place was that American settlement of land beyond the Appalachian Mountains was prohibited by the British in order to prevent conflicts with Natives.
 
The Iroquois have their lands sold by Congress and as recompense, are given some vague promise to some lands in the Northwest Territory. They move to this land and despite heavy resistance from the locals, manage to carve out a living in their new homeland as American citizens. The problem is that 20-30 years down the road, white settlers will encroach on their land and demand that they leave. Rinse and repeat.
 
In a more positive light, a native majority state could be carved out for them? And down the road that could be seen as a "solution", creating states for groups like the Cherokee, Navajo.
 

Philip

Donor
Suppose they are accepted as the 14th state. What prevents European-descent Americans from moving in? What keeps the state native denominated?
 
I agree that the US government routinely broke treaties with the Indians. It is my understanding that one reason why was that there was no one who would supply the Indians with weapons and support. However there is one reason why the USA would need to honor any agreement. The British are still in Canada which would border the "State of Iroquois". If the US starts to treat this 14th state different the other 13 states, I am sure that the British would love to stick to the Americans by selling weapons to the Iroquois state militia. Also I am assuming that at this time the state militias had cannons so the Iroquois would have cannons and stocks of weapons in the state armories.
 
I think General Schuyler (the man who tried to negotiate their neutrality for the Patriots) had some interest in helping to create industry among the Iroquois, and IIRC he had family connections (son in law?) in investment banking. So he could advocate for them to maintain their independence. There is a place in upstate New York near/in Iroquois land that is great for making salt IIRC, so that would be a nice start up venture. They could supply victuals, and guides to New England settlers looking to move west into Ohio.

If they join as allies the Continental Congress may even decide to buy the territorial claim off of New York and let a chunk of Upstate (maybe even part of north western Pennsylvania) go to be Iroquois territory maybe as an independent country, or a type of semi-autonomous subjugate (more independence than Puerto Rico, but not to the level of a federated state). I suspect they wouldn't get full state status in the union for close to a century.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Allying doesn't mean integrating into the United States though. Can't the Iroquois remain independent allies with their sovereignty respected?
 
Allying doesn't mean integrating into the United States though. Can't the Iroquois remain independent allies with their sovereignty respected?

No, because US states have claims on their land that the Federal government isent going to have the ability or inclination to make them give up
 

althisfan

Banned
The Iroquois have their lands sold by Congress and as recompense, are given some vague promise to some lands in the Northwest Territory. They move to this land and despite heavy resistance from the locals, manage to carve out a living in their new homeland as American citizens. The problem is that 20-30 years down the road, white settlers will encroach on their land and demand that they leave. Rinse and repeat.
If you check the map in my post above you'll see the Iroquois already claimed pretty much the entire Northwest Territory, so why would they give those lands only for Congress to give them a vague promise to some of them in return?
 

althisfan

Banned
I think General Schuyler (the man who tried to negotiate their neutrality for the Patriots) had some interest in helping to create industry among the Iroquois, and IIRC he had family connections (son in law?) in investment banking. So he could advocate for them to maintain their independence. There is a place in upstate New York near/in Iroquois land that is great for making salt IIRC, so that would be a nice start up venture. They could supply victuals, and guides to New England settlers looking to move west into Ohio.

If they join as allies the Continental Congress may even decide to buy the territorial claim off of New York and let a chunk of Upstate (maybe even part of north western Pennsylvania) go to be Iroquois territory maybe as an independent country, or a type of semi-autonomous subjugate (more independence than Puerto Rico, but not to the level of a federated state). I suspect they wouldn't get full state status in the union for close to a century.
That son in law is Alexander Hamilton.
 
If you check the map in my post above you'll see the Iroquois already claimed pretty much the entire Northwest Territory, so why would they give those lands only for Congress to give them a vague promise to some of them in return?

Because there are only so many Iroquois and many times the amount of white settlers more than willing to take it. There's little to no chance that the Iroquois make out of this okay.
 

Maoistic

Banned
No, because US states have claims on their land that the Federal government isent going to have the ability or inclination to make them give up
If the Iroquois join them, they could negotiate the land claims. I agree that the newly created US would want to have the entire Iroquois country, but it is too unstable to do anything major for the first decades of its existence and would want as many allies as possible to check the British. It's the reason they didn't go for the Spanish colonies in the vicinity from the get go, and only managed to buy Florida which the Spanish ceded rather happily.
 
If the Iroquois join them, they could negotiate the land claims. I agree that the newly created US would want to have the entire Iroquois country, but it is too unstable to do anything major for the first decades of its existence and would want as many allies as possible to check the British. It's the reason they didn't go for the Spanish colonies in the vicinity from the get go, and only managed to buy Florida which the Spanish ceded rather happily.

Maybe if it was a smaller state, it'd be different. But we are talking New York here: a state that already wasen't entirely on board with the Constitution and who's refusal to sign onto the new nation could easily strangle it in its cradle. Who's going to run that risk for the sake of the land claims of mere Native Americans given the racial attitudes of the time?
 

Maoistic

Banned
Maybe if it was a smaller state, it'd be different. But we are talking New York here: a state that already wasen't entirely on board with the Constitution and who's refusal to sign onto the new nation could easily strangle it in its cradle. Who's going to run that risk for the sake of the land claims of mere Native Americans given the racial attitudes of the time?
Racism didn't stop the French and British in the same period from recruiting Native Americans and respecting their sovereignty when it suited them.
 
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