Heh, Crusader Kings is as good a source as any. A snake eating an elephant perhaps?
..I will admit that my motivation is primarily the though of an eventual M&T mod once 2.0 releases this Sunday.
Visconti Victorious: Medieval Italian Unification
- Thread starter The Undead Martyr
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Heh, Crusader Kings is as good a source as any. A snake eating an elephant perhaps?
..I will admit that my motivation is primarily the though of an eventual M&T mod once 2.0 releases this Sunday.
I suppose it would be a heraldic shield at this time in history: maybe the viper of the Visconti quartered with an olive and a palm, or with the winged bull of Luke (or both). Motto: Hic sumus, hic manebimus optime (We're here and here we'll prosper).
I'd like to see the full heraldic shield of the Visconti ITTL: it would be something to behold.
I am pretty surethere will be always a rivality between the Turkic tribes of southern and eastern Anatolia (and Central Asia too) and the Iranian highlands. The shia/sunni split will continue even in the absence of Ottomans and Safavids
Interesting, why is Luke associated with Africa, or is that with the Visconti/Milan?
Well, given that one particular Turkic tribe is about to conquer both Iran and Central Asia (among other places) I think that rivalry might not be as absolute as you suggest.
As far as the Visconti go, how about this?
Stitched together rather crudely from existing flags.
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But traditionally foreign conquerors of Iran all adopted Iranian customs pretty quickly, whatever their origin. Also don't forget the traditional hate of Shias for Arabs in general and Sunni Arabs in particular.
The funniest thing in the shield is that the OTL Visconti quartered the viper with the imperial eagle to curry favor with the HRE. Here it gives a completely different message.
Didn't you like my African flag?
That makes sense, and certainly both Arabs and the Sunni will be rivals/outside of Iranian oversight, but what about north India, Pakistan, and Central Asia and Crimea? I would think that those areas- which aren't "Arab" so much as Turkish/Altaic (and with longstanding Indo-Iranian influences) would be more amenable to Persian/Shia influences especially if they end up as clients/vassals/provinces of a Greater Persian Empire.
Hah, yeah, that does change the context, especially given the association of Lombardy with, well, the Iron Crown of the Lombards. Same thing with Sicily, and its Staufer eagle.
I had that flag on hand from splicing together pre-existing M&T countries, hence why Africa isn't present.
Every game of Crusader Kings and Eu4 tells me you have to hold medina and mekka to mend the shia sunni split but I'll wait to see how you deal with that in the TL.
Isnt the top right quarter of your flag the Heraldic arms of the Sforza after they became the dukes of milan?
I readily admit that I do not have an answer, mostly because I lack an adequate knowledge of the history and the dynamics of those areas.
OTOH, and speaking in very general terms, I would note that even IOTL where there was a clear rivalry between the Ottomans and the Safavids there were border areas where Sunnis still exist notwithstanding centuries of Shia domination (e.g. Iranian Kurdistan in the west and Baluchistan in the east), and viceversa (e.g. Shias in southern Iraq, and Shias of different flavor in Syria and Lebanon).
It might be argued that the early Safavid choice to go Shia was a political one (shah Ismail after all was the son of a Sufi), based on the necessity to create a counter-altar to the Ottomans: therefore if there is no menacing Sunni Ottomans on the west border, there is not the need for a ruling Iranian dynasty to choose the Shia school (or heresy, the difference is after all completely formal). By the same token the Sunni dominance in North India, Pakistan and Afghanistan might spring more from an opposition to Persian dominance rather than from a theological choice. Last but maybe not least Persian dynasties were pretty tolerant in terms of religion, and an expansionist Iran ITTL might well revert to type.
I'm aware that applying logic to religion matters is at best awkward and at worst foolish and dangerous, but logic would say that you might argue the matter either way according to the necessities of your narrative.
Isn't the reason Iran is Shi'ite because the Savafids aggressively converted it?
That was my understanding as well. his owing again to politcs namey the eivalry with the Ottomans.
Yes, but there were reasons: not only the Ottomans but also the necessity of building up a suitable narrative which would justify his attempt of taking the throne (after all the narrative of a young prince spirited away to save him from the death of his family, taught by learned men in a secret place and returned to his ancestral lands to take revenge against the assassins of his father and brother is a classic of Indo-European folklore and can be found in different forms from the Atlantic to the Far East).
Anyway the west of Iran was a hodge-podge of Sunni, Shia and Sufi, and shah Ismail craftily constructed story would be resonating very well with Shia traditions.
Effectively Ismail took advantage of a power vacuum and - as I said - choose the narrative that would best suit his purposes
Yes, religion was a powerful source of legitimacy. The Akk Qoyunlu TTL will have the caliphate under their control (or a caliphate at least) as given the weakness of the Mamluks and their "submission" to the Christians they will feel justified in restoring a puppet Caliph to Baghdad. My thought was that this would obviate the need for a political narrative such as Shah Ismael constructed though it's not impossible that they could adopt Shia doctrine at some point anyway.
Rota Fortunae
Rota Fortunae
The Emperor holds Court in Pavia
The Emperor holds Court in Pavia
Filippo Maria's intervention in Thessalonika was not done for charity. Since the Crusade Greece itself had passed under Visconti jurisdiction as Papal vicar of Greece; now Bulgaria and Illyria were likewise made subject to Milan. The latter predictably annoyed the Habsburgs of Austria-Hungary, but as the bulk of Illyria was owned either by the Visconti or by their Venetian clients they had little recourse. The Venetians were almost as upset but gave no complaint, recognizing that this was intended to give the Emperor another lever to enforce their cooperation. In truth although Filippo Maria claimed Albania the Illyrian Slavs took their cues not from Vienna or Milan nor even from Rome but from Venice. The coastal cities had been annexed into the Republic and the hinterland was under heavy Venetian influence. Venice recruited heavily from Slavic populations of the Adriatic littoral- Albanian Stratioti were second only to Croats from Dalmatia in their representation among the Republic's military- and several princes had even secured sinecures in the Republic itself beyond mere mercenaries. The famous Skanderbeg and his family were made Citizens of the Republic in 1440, a rare honor but not one unique to that family.
As the Byzantine Empire collapsed into civil war the Western Empire faced its own calamity: Emperor Filippo Maria Visconti, the Grand Signore of Naples, was dying. By 1450 he was 57 years old, and the demands of his office- as first king, then regent, and finally Emperor- weighed ever more heavily upon him. Heaviest of all was the death of both his daughter Valentina and her infant son Filippo in 1448; Filippo Maria had no further daughters with which to bind the two Visconti lines together, and beyond any political aspirations Valentina had always been the most cherished of his children. In the wake of Valentina's demise the Emperor gradually withdrew from the court at Pavia, becoming ever more morose and reclusive; government passed increasingly to Cosimo de Medici, for the young king Gian Galeazzo II- by now in his early twenties- had become an indolent and indecisive king long accustomed to surrendering to the influence of more formidable individuals. Although kindly, well-read, and impulsively energetic Gian Galeazzo lacked the spine or the resolve for captaining what was in 1450 Europe's most powerful state, and the court at Pavia quickly slipped from the ailing Filippo Maria into the waiting hands of the urban oligarchs and merchants.
Tarot Cards depicting the Visconti
Filippo Maria Visconti breathed his last in Pavia on December 23rd, 1450, an end long anticipated by both the assorted Visconti courtiers and the German princes. With his death Gian Galeazzo II formally acceded to the crown of Naples but in truth his actual power and influence were not meaningfully expanded, as the king was easily swayed by the Medici and other note-worthies. With Filippo Maria died the impressive string of capable monarchs which had forged Milan into the political heart of the Mediterranean world; for the first time in its history the formidable Visconti state had to endure the reign of a weak and incompetent ruler.
Across the Alps, the thirty-five year old Frederick V quickly secured his election to the German Kaisardom, Gian Galeazzo casting a failed vote for himself (along with the King of Lorraine and the Palatinate) and the Polish king Frederick II backing his own candidacy rather than the unimpressive young Visconti heir; the Frisians, under the influence of the English, backed Austria. Gian Galeazzo did not contest Frederick's election, but Frederick was intent on securing an imperial coronation in Rome. Gian Galeazzo himself fled from the Emperor's stately procession in Germany for Milan. This blunder might ordinarily have provoked an imperial ban, but the amiable Frederick V was predisposed to diplomatic solutions wherever possible, and convened the first Emergency Council in Munich to resolve the dispute, demanding that King Gian Galeazzo “present himself before his Emperor and air his grievances like an honest man.”
After consultation with his advisors Gian Galeazzo yielded to the Imperial demand and on March 23rd 1451 he appeared in Munich with a sizable retinue. The entire meeting was meticulously recorded by German scribes, and the following exchange in particular is heavily cited:
Frederick: “Do you mean to bar my passage [across the Alps]?”
Gian Galeazzo: “Do you mean to steal my kingdom?”
Frederick: “I am the Emperor of Rome, King of Germany and Italy, and your liege.”
Gian Galeazzo: “Do you claim dominion over my lands?”
Frederick: “The Holy Empire claims dominion over all lands.”
Ultimately Frederick managed to soothe the flighty Gian Galeazzo by offering him his daughter Elizabeth as a new bride. In leiu of any dowry the Emperor-Elect offered to formally cede Carniola and Tirol to the Visconti, renouncing his claims to those lands[A]; henceforth the Visconti's consorts styled themselves as the Duchess of Tirol and Carniola. Elizabeth, although two years younger than her husband, was far more regal and willful, and rapidly made herself the eminence grise of Milan just as the late Filippo Maria had done prior. When the couple's first child was born in 1452 the formidable Elizabeth insisted on naming him after her father; the feckless Gian Galeazzo rapidly yielded to his wife's entreaties, abandoning his plan to name the boy after his own father and predecessor Gian Maria and agreeing to name his heir was thus named Gian Federico instead.
The Habsburg-Visconti marriage stabilized relations in the wake of Gian Maria's conquest and formally re-asserted the feudal hierarchy in a manner that both rulers found acceptable. It did not end the rivalry between Habsburg and Visconti, and this would not be the last time a contested election nearly resulted in war, but it did form the framework for Italo-German political relations for the foreseeable future.
This inauspicious beginning of Gian Galeazzo II's reign augured poorly for the future, and further ill omens arrived one after the other. An earthquake struck Venice in 1451, many claiming the “sinful excess” of the Republic as responsible; in Naples the plague reared its head; a fire in Pisa ravaged the merchant's quarter in 1452, and incited a general economic malaise across Tuscany; and in in 1453 all of Europe convulsed in panic when Venetian traders brought dire news from Syria: Antioch had fallen, and the armies of Sultan Uzun Hassan of Persia were marching on Jerusalem.
[A]This is based on the OTL resolution of the Welf-Staufer feud; Frederick II seized their Saxon holdings and then re-enfeoffed the Welfs with the Duchy of Brunswick. Medieval politics is a mashup between mafia blood-feuds and insane legal munchkinry; you could claim land because the last ruler was your wife's fourth cousin twice removed, you could get the Pope to give you the right to steal someone's stuff after you conquered it, you could claim the old king was a bastard and try to usurp him because you have the bigger army and are married to his niece, you could claim that as the immediate heir to that French warlord from a century ago who conquered a bunch of places you were the legitimate Roman Emperor and proper ruler of everything in Italy, but you had to have something beyond just force if you wanted to be secure in your conquests, and the more spurious the claim the harder it was to hold onto it and the more naked the force needed to make good on it.
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Well, it was expected both Visconti Italy and Byzantium would enter into a phase of downsize - still they fared better than expected so far.
Maybe both powers would manage to compensate the weakness of their rulers with administrative competency, and stay afloat for a while. But I feel Milan>Italy will seek soon or later secession from the HRE, and Byzantium decisive recovery of Anatolia or Greece. But we'll see, everything is motion for now.
Maybe both powers would manage to compensate the weakness of their rulers with administrative competency, and stay afloat for a while. But I feel Milan>Italy will seek soon or later secession from the HRE, and Byzantium decisive recovery of Anatolia or Greece. But we'll see, everything is motion for now.
Italy seceding from the Empire may or may not happen eventually, but will depend more on a Napoleon level shakeup. There almost certainly will be at least one more Visconti emperor and the Habsburgs won't keep it as readily as OTL, and again the empire is an institution for international diplomacy, which as Imperial Vicars and Prince Electors serves the Visconti as well.
Of course the Emperor won't exercise meaningful control over Italy if they aren't a Visconti- but then the Habsburgs depended pretty heavily on their dynastic lands and didn't really exercise meaningful control over Germany in OTL.
My actual (and very unsettled) plan is for the HRE to survive to the present day and eventually evolve into TTLs EU equivalent. Significant constitutional changes will need to be made to accomplish this- the biggest problem is that the Emperor is both a national actor (as king of Germany at al) and an international actor (as the secular leader of Europe and chair of the Congress). For the Empire to evolve in the manner I suggest it would need to resolve those tensions somehow, either by expanding the Diet, imperial courts etc internationally and merging them fully into the Congress system or by formally separating "Germany" from "The Empire" while maintaining the former as a distinct substrate of the latter.
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Well, OTL was something of France wank, and a Habsburg wank, and an England Wank, among other things. But yes the Visconti will have their tragedies as well as their triumphs, even if they will remain a major player generally.
As I already told you before, this is simply not done in ruling families. Not even when the groom is a feckless wimp and the bride is a virago.
I would also support @HunterX comment: there is no Slovenia in the XV century, but there is a duchy of Carniola.
Talking about the Visconti chances, I'm not too pessimistic. GG2 is an idiot, but at least it seems he's a lazy idiot rather than an active one and the government structure of the Visconti domains is solid enough. More to the point, there is still Cosimo the Old with his finger in all the important pies: he always struck me as a man with a vision, and certainly not one who would rock the boat for some short term gains.
He should have another 14 years, and this should be enough to shore up the worst consequences of the death of Filippo Maria. Unfortunately his son Piero (nicknamed the Gouty) while certainly intelligent was not only handicapped by a bad health, but was also quite reluctant to taking risks: a good man for routine business, but not a man made to be the decision maker (IOTL the first thing he made after the death of his father was to start calling in the loans the Medici bank had granted: it was a decision made by a bean counter, not by a banker, and obviously ended up in a political disaster). TTL he may certainly be a different man, if for no other reason because he will have lived in a completely different and more exciting way. As a matter of fact, Cosimo had only one legitimate son from his wife because he was sent in exile and afterwards the relation between he and Contessina was very cold, but this would have not happened ITTL, and he might have more sons.
I'm actually going to put my foot down with Frederick, as IMHO naming the kid after a maternal grandfather and the current emperor isn't entirely implausible given how utterly spineless Gian Galeazzo II is. Certainly it will be seen as a major weakness/laughing stock and a sign of GGII being an utter wimp in the face of a shrewish wife, but at the end of the day "rules" like this are secondary to the persons involved and their characters and GGII really is *that* easily swayed by more dominating personalities such as first his uncle and now his wife (although this could be seen as wisdom in a way- on some level he's smart enough to know that he's not a particularly capable king, and willing to let more capable men/women take charge... and in any case being raised by Filippo Maria in the shadow of Gian Maria wasn't good for his self esteem, certainly any hint of independence was ruthlessly suppressed by the former). Write it off as GGII deciding to sucker up to his new father in law, if need be (which is admittedly not a terrible idea at this point in time). Doylist wise I want a new monarch name to play with and I was always partial to Frederick due to the Stupor Mundi and Old Fritz.
In any case the Visconti are young enough that their traditions are still somewhat flexible; it's not quite the same as say the Valois trying to be innovative, more a new blood trying to sucker up to the old money.The Visconti state is certainly powerful enough to generally maintain itself, but as the Akk Qoyunlu demonstrate their interests (and obligations) are far-reaching and even Filippo Maria might have difficulty dealing with the Persians at their height on top of everything else.
Cosimo is definitely going to be a major power broker in Milan, between him and Elizabeth they basically maintained the status quo. Of course the state being in the control of a woman and a banker won't do its reputation any favors but the serpents of Milan were always going to be viewed as uppity parvenues no matter what.
Vis a vis Slovenia I wasn't overly attached to it; my vague thought process was basically a derivative of "king of the Slovenes" as a more grandiose title. I dunno, it wasn't really important and I will change it now.
Interesting about the Medici, of course they and the rest of the notables are coming of age in a radically altered circumstance. Piero is also married to a different woman- Gian Maria's bastard Valentina- so there are new genetics in the mix too.
Same thing goes for TTL's Henry VI actually (and the Valois who are totally OCs due to Louis "the Victorious" surviving and becoming king TTL) who is the son of Henry V and the Luxembourg duchess rather than a Valois Princess.
I'm not going to insist although I would humbly submit that the Visconti were already feudatories of the archbishop of Milan in the second half of the 9th century (a Valderico and an Eriprando are both attested among the originators of the family's fortune.
I beg your pardon? Cosimo was a politician who - as the head of the family - also managed a bank. He was instrumental in the election of popes, and the Signoria of Venice was handling him with a lot of respect and care when he was an exile there. He dealt with Filippo Maria and was a personal friend of Francesco Sforza.
Considering that his two sons from Lucrezia Tornabuoni were Lorenzo (whose well deserved nickname was "the Magnificent" and Giuliano (who was assassinated in the Pazzi plot when he was only 25 years old, but who was considered as intelligent and brilliant as Lorenzo), I am somehow skeptic that Piero can sire better sons ITTL than he did IOTL.