The Iron Eagle - The History of the Cold War
- Thread starter Kaiser of Brazil
- Start date
I have a serious problem with this statement. Rodolfo Graziani was the general that overseed the worst defeat of the Italian Army in WW2 (Operation Compass) and was then relieved of all commands and put under penal investigation for its actions. Graziani remained mostly inactive for the next two years and during his time in Italy, he played a marginal role in suppressing the Italian anti-fascist movement. I can see him being given another command after the war but it would only be symbolical and not an important front: maybe in Greece or Albania but nothing more.
The thing is that the war did not go much like the real war, the Italian army had either more soft defeats (Pushed to Epirus in Greece and didn’t get pushed back all the way to Albania), or real life operations and defeats did not happen or happened differently. Graziani (like much of the Italian high command), is not really a very competent commander but he’s loyal and useful for Mussolini’s support inside the Military. For instance, Wilhelm Keitel was not the best commander of the OKW but was still put in charge by Hitler because he was loyal, sometimes dictatorships prefer to favor more control than more competence.
I know that he was the most loyal Italian Army General to Mussolini but even if the Italian Army was slightly more prepared than in OTL the Italians would have been defeated no matter what in TTL Operation Compass. Maybe their losses are less than in OTL (130.000 captured or killed)maybe 80.000 it is still a very big defeat at the end of a significantly smaller force is still something that is very embarrassing. In OTL Mussolini despised him so much that even considered putting him under house arrest and Farinacci openly spoke of him being a coward so I don't really think that Graziani would make any significant comeback. Giovanni Messe would have been a more appropriate person to receive a promotion since he was and is still considered the best Italian general of WW2.
Messe was competent, but was he loyal to Mussolini?
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I voted Himmler, simply because no one has thus far. It looks like Speer will come out on top, though.
It is merely a poll of who you think will succeed, the popular choice does not necessarily have to win (after all its fittingly about who would be leader of a totalitarian State). Himmler actually is the one with the most power individually compared to the others, the SS is incredibly powerful after the victory in the East, they have a well-equipped army of their own and millions of slaves under their control.
I don't want to sound offensive but both of you miss the mark here: if you want a loyal fascist general that however is not compromised by catastrophic war losses then your person is Ettore Bastico. He initially commanded a blackshirt Division in the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, then was selected as commander-in-chief of the Italian volunteer corps in Spain and after the Spanish Civil war became the Governor of the Italian Aegean Islands. In July 1941 Bastico was named Governor-General of Italian Libya and commander-in-chief over all Axis forces in North Africa. As Erwin Rommel's superior in the North African campaign, Rommel's plans had to be first approved by Bastico. Bastico was even promoted to Marshal of Italy (Maresciallo d'Italia) on 12 August 1942.
Italo Gariboldi also comes to mind: he served in Abyssinia, North Africa (where he was able to keep the shattered 10th Italian Army together long enough to allow for German and Italian reinforcements to arrive in Tripoli) and then was transferred to Russia since he did not get on very well with Rommel. He was also personally awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross by Adolf Hitler for his leadership of Italian forces in the Battle of Stalingrad.
The problem with Graziani is that he was too heavily compromised by the defeat in late 1940/early 1941 and was only called back to action because he was the only Marshal of Italy that remained loyal to Mussolini. ITTL his fate could be even worse than in OTL since it is very likely that the Italian propaganda machine would place almost all the blame for the defeat of the Italian 10th Army squarely on him (which to be honest a correct analysis of what happened).
This is exactly what I wanted to say. IMAO Bastico is a better option than Gariboldi for the simple facts he was a former Blackshirt militaman and then served in the main Italian front of the war: North Africa.
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Made an (assumed) map of the world in the year 1950. Correct me if there is anything wrong (probably missed a few details or so)
The Philippines would be independent as the Tydings-McDuffie Act specified that the Philippines would gain independence after a ten-year period.
too bad, I still hope to see the world of Speer, and hope you don't choose Himmler
A good map from what I can see, but perhaps you could change the color of the US client states or show outlines of their colors; right now it looks like Japan, Korea, and the Philippines are all American states.
You two make good points, time to sideline Graziani into the dustbin of History.
That’s a very well done map, the corrections I would do: Make Ukraine smaller (Muscovy has more territory near the south and RK Ukraine doesn’t have access to the frontier), Free France controls Equatorial Guinea from Spain, Djibouti, Somaliland, Nice, and Savoy are Italian, give some parts of Epirus to Albanian Italy. The British should have Dutch Guinea but India is Independent as a Unified Dominion (for now, the “Unified” part will certainly not last long), and the Chinese Civil War will still be finished in 1950, also, the Arab part of Palestine is part of Jordan, not independent.
Yes, it was one of the post-war plans to make Crimea a model settlement colony, not sure if I remember but it should be mentioned in the ”Gnadenlos” chapter.
That’s in Mr. MacArthur’s wet dreams, yes the Philippines are independent and so is Korea, without the USSR there isn’t much of an strategic need to occupy the land. As for Japan, they will remain under occupation for some time.
The Reich has many interest groups fighting for power constantly, Gauleiters keep trying outdo the other’s achievements to impress Hitler, and by the Führerprinzip things are kept quite decentralized through vague orders.
The SS is single-handedly the largest individual faction, controlling the intelligence services, the police, the concentration camps, and having a parallel army of it’s own (Waffen-SS) which is claimed to be the Elite of the Reich, including even volunteers across Europe (Mostly because the SS receives priority funding and equipment). They are also the most centralized, led by Heinrich Himmler (Reichsführer-SS), who became the single most influential man in the Reich after Göring’s death. Reinhard Heydrich is also part of this faction with great personal influence of his own as the chief of the Secret Police and the Intelligence services.
The NSDAP itself is not as centralized, but theoretically they should be the most powerful faction if they were. The Party is the bureaucratic machine that keeps the nation running, controlling practically all the State departments, Committees, and regional administration. While it should all theoretically be under Hitler, he rarely ever intervenes in politics, especially since the victory, which led to two figures being the ones taking control of this Monster: Rudolf Hess and his Deputy Martin Bormann. Hess is not a politically savvy or ambitious man, spending more time in his esoterical conspiracies or making sycophantic speeches to Hitler, but his office is still theoretically of the Deputy Führer, which gives him control to vet the entrance and applications of the civil service. Most of the task goes to Bormann, who is also Hitler’s Secretary, playing the part of the “Brown Eminence”, the Majordomo of the Reich, he is definitely the power behind Hess, using of his legitimacy to place him as a legitimate successor so he keeps ruling the Reich from behind the shadows. Everyone is aware of that inside the Inner Circle and all of them hate Martin Bormann, but who knows if they won’t be able to turn Hess against his Deputy?
The Industrialists are, in some ways, the great winners of the war. Awarded with vast amounts of “virgin” land in the East, millions of (unwilling) workers, the Industrial conglomerates have started a boom in the post-war that had kept the economy mostly afloat (despite Hitler’s megalomania) for now. Krupp, IG Farben, Volkswagen, Siemens, Bayer, Porsche etc all are spreading across Europe thanks to the Linz Pakt, bringing the German influence alongside them as these companies employ millions of workers. No doubt there is great influence where Money is, and these Megacorps are mostly represented by Albert Speer. Not only he’s the big architect giving the government contracts for Hitler’s vanity projects, but he is also Minister of Armaments of the nation with the largest military spending in the world, and since Göring’s death he also became the head of the Four-year plan, overshadowing the elderly Walther Funk.
The Wehrmacht still are one of the most prestigious institutions, not just in Germany but across the world. The Army that (by miracles few can explain) never suffered a major crippling defeat in its history. In just four years, the Grey-shirted soldiers marched from Paris to Moscow, conquering from Trondheim to Alexandria. They also possess the largest, most well-equipped and experienced Army in the world (followed close behind by the US army). Theoretically under Hitler himself, the army is controlled by Wilhelm Keitel, a known loyalist, while Heinz Guderian is it’s Chief of Staff, mostly thanks to his prestige over his victories and part in creating the Bewegungskrieg tactics, and while less enthusiastic than Keitel, he is also loyal to Hitler. Ever since Göring’s death, the Luftwaffe, with thousands of planes as one of the top-3 Air fleets in the world, artillery and even army divisions of its own, have fallen under the command of Kesselring, who is not as politically-active as his predecessor and has focused more on increasing the efficiency and technology of the air fleet. The Navy, which has been seeing rapid expansion in recent years, is under the command of Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz, who is a man loyal to Hitler and known for his efforts in Submarine warfare. In fact, the majority of the army reformists can be found in dissenting Generals and Colonels, such as Henning von Tresckow, Ludwig Beck, Friedrich Olbricht, Claus von Stauffenberg, and Field Marshal Witzleben, all of which can have second opinions on a continued rule of the NSDAP over Germany.
There are many other factions and Ministries other than these but these will likely be investigated further once we go back to exploring the Third Reich.