The Iron Age of Comics: Jim Shooter's Return to Marvel
- Thread starter Pyro
- Start date
In the books ittl, yes. The movie is its own separate universe.
I read some where that certain characters weren't being included in the Spider-Man movie because they were died in the comics. Now I'm okay with the idea that Pierce Brosnan's Tony is the son of the original (explaining his accent).
Chapter 50 - Countdown to Crisis II
DC had intended for 1985’s Crisis on Infinite Earths to streamline its continuity, but had exacerbated the problem in many respects with some characters (notably Superman and Wonder Woman) having their histories rebooted while others (the Legion of Super-Heroes and Donna Troy) still had theirs intact. Further retcons like the Silver Age Hawkman’s 1989 reboot necessitated more retcons to explain the character’s post-Crisis/pre-Hawkworld appearances. Publisher Jeanette Khan and Paul Levitz had finally said “enough” and ordered a streamlining of the DCU’s timeline and to fix these paradoxes once and for all. While they had intended to launch Countdown in the fall of 1994, Levitz decided to delay the series until 1995 to better prepare its editors for the coming changes to coincide with the tenth anniversary of Crisis.
Such an undertaking would require a writer with an intimate knowledge of DC history and lore to make the seven issue mini-series work, which the incumbent writer of The Flash, Mark Waid possessed. Having been an editor Waid was able to coordinate with other creative teams and heavily consulted with Animal Man’s Grant Morrison [1] and original Crisis scribe on the project. DC Comics billed Countdown: A Crisis in Time as the sequel to Crisis on Infinite Earths with many characters from the original series returning. However, what made the series most notable at the time was reversed numbering that counted down to issue zero.
The series begins with Monarch, formerly the hero Captain Atom, arriving in Limbo where he encounters the Psycho Pirate, the original Earth-3 Crime Syndicate, and other characters erased from existence by the Crisis. Upon learning of the original multiverse from the Library of Limbo and the instability of the timeline, Monarch sets out to recreate the multiverse before time unravels completely. He then recruits the inhabitants of Limbo for a siege on the Vanishing Point where the Linear Men operate from.
However, the Linear Men are alarmed by the fraying timestream with not only the 30th century vanishing from existence, but other future eras like Abra Kadabra’s (64th century) and Eobard Thawne’s (25th). Chronal “storms” are already beginning to appear in the 20th century particularly around the planet Thanagar, Daxam, and Earth. Harbinger arrives to extract the Linear Men before Monarch’s forces can capture them uttering that, “the Crisis never ended. It is just beginning.”
Meanwhile, the Justice League is fighting on two fronts with Superman’s half of the League tending to the Crisis on Thanagar while Wonder Woman’s team handles the storms on Earth. Pariah appears before Superman’s team during the evacuation of Thanagar warning of the impending catastrophe before pinning the blame on Hawkman and Hawkwoman, who are the storm’s focal point. Hawkman and Hawkwoman suddenly fade from existence due to the chronal storm, which then intensifies and destroys the planet.
Wonder Woman similarly disappears only for her Golden Age counterpart to take her place along with her version of Paradise Island. She insists that she is a member of the Justice Society and that they are all her old friends, which confuses the JSA as she was never a member from their perspective. Indeed many characters that had died--including Doctor Midnight and the second Wildcat--reappear as the various eras of DC history [2] bleed into each other.
Harbinger and the Linear Men reveal that the history the heroes remember is not the same as the one she had recorded years earlier [3]. The “time fluctuations” that afflict Wonder Woman and other characters as well as pulling Barry Allen and pre-Crisis Superboy into the current DCU are the result of the imperfect merger of the remaining Earths. While it appears to be a self-correction cascading backwards through time to the Big Bang as a cosmic reset, Monarch plans to use it to bring back the multiverse and pervert into his own image.
Meanwhile, unscrupulous time travellers like Per Degaton and the revived Time Trapper exploit the chaos of the crisis, forcing the heroes to fight on three fronts. The Justice Society stages a valiant last stand against Per Degaton, which ends in the deaths of the Dr. Mid-Nite, Hourman, Wildcat, as well as the Golden Age Hawks and Atom. However, their sacrifice allows their slain successors to live again.
Superboy (pre-Crisis) and every Teen Titans, past and present, confront the Time Trapper who has his own designs for recreating the timeline. The battle sees the deaths of many Titans, notably Aqualad, Duela Dent, and the entire roster of Team Titans who the Trapper ages to dust. Seeing that he is an anomaly, Pre-Crisis Superboy ultimately chooses to sacrifice himself to destroy the Time Trapper once and for all to rid the timeline of his influence.
The bulk of DC heroes travel with Harbinger, Pariah, and the Linear Men to the Vanishing Point to confront Monarch. What follows is a massive battle between the assembled heroes and Monarch’s forces, which serves as a distraction for the former hero to go back in time to the Big Bang pursued by the Flashes. Barry gives Wally a heartfelt goodbye and blessing before pulling ahead to forcibly take Monarch with him to his “final race” in the original Crisis, destroying the both of them along with the Anti-Monitor’s antimatter cannon.
Everything fades to black and the time realigns itself in Countdown #0, which is released the same month as zero issues of DC’s titles. Most of these issues tweak the origins of their characters in certain ways. For example George Perez’s run on Wonder Woman is still canon, but shunted back on the timeline to make her origin contemporaneous with Superman and Batman’s. Thus she is once again a founding member of the Justice League. Similarly, the Silver Age Hawkman and Hawkwoman have their histories restored with Tim Truman’s Hawkworld taking place before 1961’s The Brave and the Bold #34 and their Silver Age adventures restored [4].
Perhaps, most significant is the reinsertion of Mon-El into the Superman mythos in Superboy #0 where a terminally Lar Gand crashes into Smallville [5] and finds himself a prisoner of Dabney Donovan. Superboy is able to save Lar, but has to send him to the Phantom Zone to keep him alive. This issue acted as foreshadowing of the rebooted Legion of Super-Heroes series that would launch later that year and it would not be the only team whose title would return.
Marv Wolfman would leave New Titans after a sixteen year run and hand the reins to Scott Lobdell who would revitalize the team by bringing in older Titans like Arsenal and Donna Troy to see the training of the next generation of young heroes. This included Robin [Tim Drake], Superboy, Impulse, in addition to Arrowette, a new Wonder Girl [6], and Aqualad. Indeed, the “junior Justice League” gave the Teen Titans franchise a much-needed shot in the arm that saw it re-enter the Top 25 best-selling titles.
While Countdown saw the deaths of many of its prominent members, the Justice Society of America received a new title after DC unceremoniously cancelled the 1992-3 series. However, the hook was that the JSA had merged with Infinity Inc. with many of the latter’s members taking the place of their predecessor’s place. The title penned by James Robinson proved to be quite successful due to the emphasis on legacy, which would grow into a larger theme within the DCU.
Ultimately, Countdown was an unqualified success for the company by capitalizing on the tenth anniversary of Crisis on Infinite Earths. While it did not completely rectify the continuity “glitches” in the DCU, it did provide a clean slate for many of its franchises that were either stagnant or mired in continuity problems. Its greater ramifications would be explored later as writers like Waid and Morrison would introduce introduce the concept of Hypertime.
[1] Who earned the credit of co-plotter of the event.
[2] This includes Anthro, DC’s Wild West/World War II characters, Kamandi, among others.
[3] In 1987’s History of the DC Universe.
[4] Though the early 90s Hawkworld/Hawkman ongoing series are apocryphal.
[5] TTL’s Superboy series is different in that Superman and Lois send Kon-El/Conner to the Kent in Smallville. Unfortunately, Dabney Donovan starts up a brand of Cadmus there to keep an eye on his creation and experiment on the locals.
[6] Cassie Sandsmark is butterflied due the John Byrne never taking the reins of Wonder Woman. Wonder Girl ITTL is Vanessa Kapatelis from the George Perez run.
Such an undertaking would require a writer with an intimate knowledge of DC history and lore to make the seven issue mini-series work, which the incumbent writer of The Flash, Mark Waid possessed. Having been an editor Waid was able to coordinate with other creative teams and heavily consulted with Animal Man’s Grant Morrison [1] and original Crisis scribe on the project. DC Comics billed Countdown: A Crisis in Time as the sequel to Crisis on Infinite Earths with many characters from the original series returning. However, what made the series most notable at the time was reversed numbering that counted down to issue zero.
The series begins with Monarch, formerly the hero Captain Atom, arriving in Limbo where he encounters the Psycho Pirate, the original Earth-3 Crime Syndicate, and other characters erased from existence by the Crisis. Upon learning of the original multiverse from the Library of Limbo and the instability of the timeline, Monarch sets out to recreate the multiverse before time unravels completely. He then recruits the inhabitants of Limbo for a siege on the Vanishing Point where the Linear Men operate from.
However, the Linear Men are alarmed by the fraying timestream with not only the 30th century vanishing from existence, but other future eras like Abra Kadabra’s (64th century) and Eobard Thawne’s (25th). Chronal “storms” are already beginning to appear in the 20th century particularly around the planet Thanagar, Daxam, and Earth. Harbinger arrives to extract the Linear Men before Monarch’s forces can capture them uttering that, “the Crisis never ended. It is just beginning.”
Meanwhile, the Justice League is fighting on two fronts with Superman’s half of the League tending to the Crisis on Thanagar while Wonder Woman’s team handles the storms on Earth. Pariah appears before Superman’s team during the evacuation of Thanagar warning of the impending catastrophe before pinning the blame on Hawkman and Hawkwoman, who are the storm’s focal point. Hawkman and Hawkwoman suddenly fade from existence due to the chronal storm, which then intensifies and destroys the planet.
Wonder Woman similarly disappears only for her Golden Age counterpart to take her place along with her version of Paradise Island. She insists that she is a member of the Justice Society and that they are all her old friends, which confuses the JSA as she was never a member from their perspective. Indeed many characters that had died--including Doctor Midnight and the second Wildcat--reappear as the various eras of DC history [2] bleed into each other.
Harbinger and the Linear Men reveal that the history the heroes remember is not the same as the one she had recorded years earlier [3]. The “time fluctuations” that afflict Wonder Woman and other characters as well as pulling Barry Allen and pre-Crisis Superboy into the current DCU are the result of the imperfect merger of the remaining Earths. While it appears to be a self-correction cascading backwards through time to the Big Bang as a cosmic reset, Monarch plans to use it to bring back the multiverse and pervert into his own image.
Meanwhile, unscrupulous time travellers like Per Degaton and the revived Time Trapper exploit the chaos of the crisis, forcing the heroes to fight on three fronts. The Justice Society stages a valiant last stand against Per Degaton, which ends in the deaths of the Dr. Mid-Nite, Hourman, Wildcat, as well as the Golden Age Hawks and Atom. However, their sacrifice allows their slain successors to live again.
Superboy (pre-Crisis) and every Teen Titans, past and present, confront the Time Trapper who has his own designs for recreating the timeline. The battle sees the deaths of many Titans, notably Aqualad, Duela Dent, and the entire roster of Team Titans who the Trapper ages to dust. Seeing that he is an anomaly, Pre-Crisis Superboy ultimately chooses to sacrifice himself to destroy the Time Trapper once and for all to rid the timeline of his influence.
The bulk of DC heroes travel with Harbinger, Pariah, and the Linear Men to the Vanishing Point to confront Monarch. What follows is a massive battle between the assembled heroes and Monarch’s forces, which serves as a distraction for the former hero to go back in time to the Big Bang pursued by the Flashes. Barry gives Wally a heartfelt goodbye and blessing before pulling ahead to forcibly take Monarch with him to his “final race” in the original Crisis, destroying the both of them along with the Anti-Monitor’s antimatter cannon.
Everything fades to black and the time realigns itself in Countdown #0, which is released the same month as zero issues of DC’s titles. Most of these issues tweak the origins of their characters in certain ways. For example George Perez’s run on Wonder Woman is still canon, but shunted back on the timeline to make her origin contemporaneous with Superman and Batman’s. Thus she is once again a founding member of the Justice League. Similarly, the Silver Age Hawkman and Hawkwoman have their histories restored with Tim Truman’s Hawkworld taking place before 1961’s The Brave and the Bold #34 and their Silver Age adventures restored [4].
Perhaps, most significant is the reinsertion of Mon-El into the Superman mythos in Superboy #0 where a terminally Lar Gand crashes into Smallville [5] and finds himself a prisoner of Dabney Donovan. Superboy is able to save Lar, but has to send him to the Phantom Zone to keep him alive. This issue acted as foreshadowing of the rebooted Legion of Super-Heroes series that would launch later that year and it would not be the only team whose title would return.
Marv Wolfman would leave New Titans after a sixteen year run and hand the reins to Scott Lobdell who would revitalize the team by bringing in older Titans like Arsenal and Donna Troy to see the training of the next generation of young heroes. This included Robin [Tim Drake], Superboy, Impulse, in addition to Arrowette, a new Wonder Girl [6], and Aqualad. Indeed, the “junior Justice League” gave the Teen Titans franchise a much-needed shot in the arm that saw it re-enter the Top 25 best-selling titles.
While Countdown saw the deaths of many of its prominent members, the Justice Society of America received a new title after DC unceremoniously cancelled the 1992-3 series. However, the hook was that the JSA had merged with Infinity Inc. with many of the latter’s members taking the place of their predecessor’s place. The title penned by James Robinson proved to be quite successful due to the emphasis on legacy, which would grow into a larger theme within the DCU.
Ultimately, Countdown was an unqualified success for the company by capitalizing on the tenth anniversary of Crisis on Infinite Earths. While it did not completely rectify the continuity “glitches” in the DCU, it did provide a clean slate for many of its franchises that were either stagnant or mired in continuity problems. Its greater ramifications would be explored later as writers like Waid and Morrison would introduce introduce the concept of Hypertime.
[1] Who earned the credit of co-plotter of the event.
[2] This includes Anthro, DC’s Wild West/World War II characters, Kamandi, among others.
[3] In 1987’s History of the DC Universe.
[4] Though the early 90s Hawkworld/Hawkman ongoing series are apocryphal.
[5] TTL’s Superboy series is different in that Superman and Lois send Kon-El/Conner to the Kent in Smallville. Unfortunately, Dabney Donovan starts up a brand of Cadmus there to keep an eye on his creation and experiment on the locals.
[6] Cassie Sandsmark is butterflied due the John Byrne never taking the reins of Wonder Woman. Wonder Girl ITTL is Vanessa Kapatelis from the George Perez run.
SonOfSharknado
Banned
I'm a little torn on Cassie Sandsmark not existing, but at the same time, FUCK John Byrne.
Effectively, but with a little of Geoff John's Teen Titans thrown in.
Valerie Beaudry is TTL's current Silver Swan, but had retired from the role as she did OTL.
Hawkworld is Katar Hol and Shayera Thal's definitive origin, except that they marry shortly before the pursue Byth to Earth as per The Brave and the Bold #34. Most of their Silver/Bronze adventures, including their cases with the Justice League of America, are restored to canon.
So, Katar and Shayera have Carter and Sharon’s adventures?
Sorry, I might be missing something here.
The original intent of Hawkworld was to reveal Katar Hol's origin and led into his first appearance in The Brave and the Bold #34, but DC editorial decided to have the mini-series take place in the contemporary DCU forgetting that Katar and Shayera Hol had a significant history with the Justice League. Thus DC made the following retcons:
A) The Golden Age Hawks, Carter and Sheira Hal, assumed Katar and Shayera's membership in the Justice League of America.
B) After Carter and Sheira left to fight in Ragnarok in Last Days of the Justice Society, a Thanagarian spy named Fel Andar assumed the identity of Carter Hall Jr. and married a woman named Sharon Parker claiming that he was the original Hawkman's son. Andar and Parker are the "Hawks" that joined the Justice League International until Sharon discovered his true identity in Invasion. He then murdered her and fled after she revealed his duplicity to the League.
C) It can be assumed that the Hawkman stories, including the Equalizer Plague and the Shadow War, from 1961-89 were struck from canon.
Countdown nullifies those retcons and restores the various Hawkman/Hawkwoman stories from 1961 to 1989 back to continuity, including their memberships in the Justice League of America and Justice League International.
SonOfSharknado
Banned
Feels like too much hassle and would probably confuse moviegoers more than just saying "Movie Tony isn't dead. Also, he's British."
Do we still get the launch of Starman and Lobo that tied into Zero Hour in OTL? Starman is a masterpiece, and Lobo is a dear favorite of mine.
Well, Will Payton still died ITTL so DC wasn't doing anything with the Starman brand so the James Robinson series still launched under slightly circumstances and far be it from me to deny the Main Man his ongoing.
I thought I would ask my audience this: how did you like the handling of Barry Allen ITTL? While I tend to lean slightly more to Barry than Wally, Countdown is probably the last time we will see him in the comics. It should be worth noting that Marv Wolfman was against killing off Barry in Crisis on Infinite Earths and wrote it so that he could be plucked out of the timestream during his final run as an escape clause of sorts. I decided to use it to give Wally some needed closure and Bart some further character development before sacrificing himself a second time to stop Monarch.
As for when the time comes for WB to make a Flash film I'm not 100% certain what I will do, but I am entertaining the idea of making the first one a WWII era film featuring Jay Garrick.
SonOfSharknado
Banned
I say this with all respect. Barry can fuck off to the end of infinity forever and ever, I'm so damn sick of Barry Allen.
Well, I do not want to get into a flame war over the best Flash as I tend to have affection for all of DC's speedsters. My philosophy on the best runs in the DC Universe is how well they build on what came before similar to how Geoff Johns built on the foundation Mark Waid set during his first run from 1999 to 2005. Notably how he built on Wally's supporting cast beyond the Flash family and brought in some of Barry's rogues like Captain Cold. Enter Dan DiDio and the Flash franchise suffered by forcing Bart into the mantle and the editorial chaos behind Wally's return made the title unreadable until The Flash: Rebirth. Most the New 52 series was average that slid into mediocrity by the end. Josh Williamson's run (which is ending this week) will likely go down as one of the best runs runs because he has taken elements from the Waid/Johns runs and wrote several memorable arcs.
That said, Dan DiDio's career will be taking a different path TTL as will Geoff Johns so the Flash will be heavily affected by butterflies. To what what extent remains to be seen.
That said, Dan DiDio's career will be taking a different path TTL as will Geoff Johns so the Flash will be heavily affected by butterflies. To what what extent remains to be seen.
SonOfSharknado
Banned
I would prefer if Geoff Johns had no career, as it has had an almost-universally negative impact on the industry.
I'd rate it 40/60. Stargirl, his JSA work and Green Lantern were very important but there is so much turgid crap as well. Also Teen Titans which destroyed the characterisation of most of the YJ era heroes and tossed years of continuity for Johns not very good story. About the only good thing Bendis has managed in the last 15 years is finally reversing that mess.
SonOfSharknado
Banned
Hell, I don't even rate his JSA work that highly anymore. He kept perpetuating the weirdness of Hawkman, the whitest man in the universe, appropriating Egyptian Culture. Plus his Black Adam fetish, the EXTREME grossness of Captain Marvel/Stargirl, which has only gotten creepier with recent allegations coming to light, and the banal reverence he treats the JSA with.
"Ah, yes. Where would I, Superman, who I'll remind you IS SUPERMAN, be without fucking Hourman to inspire me? Once again, I am Superman."
"Ah, yes. Where would I, Superman, who I'll remind you IS SUPERMAN, be without fucking Hourman to inspire me? Once again, I am Superman."
Still does not make up for his horrid run on the Superman titles and Legion of Super-Heroes. What made DC believe that he could write a title with 25-30 character when every character he writes sounds like a carbon copy of the other is beyond me. Bendis will most likely remain an indy creator ITTL since Ultimate Spider-Man will a casualty of butterflies.
That is the problem the problem with merging the histories of Earth-One and Earth-Two. The JSA debuted during WWII while Superman debuted closer to present day so it would stand to reason that he would be inspired by their example. -Shrug- If DC wanted to avoid that, then they should have completely rebooted the DCU after Crisis on Infinite Earths rather than implement the half-measures they did.