The Iranian Embassy Siege in London, 1980.

Cook

Banned
On the 30th of April 1980, six armed men stormed the Iranian Embassy at Princes Gate, London and took twenty six people hostage. The six were ethnic Arabs from the Iranian province of Khuzestan and had been trained and armed by the Iraqi secret service.

A six day siege ensued during which police negotiators tried to negotiate the peaceful surrender of the terrorists, managing to obtain the release of six hostages in exchange for minor concessions. The negotiator’s task was not made easier by the blanket refusal of the new Iranian Revolutionary Government to discuss negotiations, accuse the terrorists of being American agents and announce on Iranian radio that the Iranians being held hostage were keen to be martyred for the revolution. By the sixth day negotiations had come to a complete standstill.

In an attempt to pressure the police and British government the terrorists murdered one of the hostages: Abbas Lavasani, the Embassy’s Press Officer. At which point the siege was handed over from the police to the British Special Air Service who stormed the embassy and rescued all but one of the remaining hostages. Ali Akbar Samadzadeh, a minor Embassy employee was died when the terrorists sprayed the hostages with bullets when they realised the embassy was being assaulted.

During the course of the SAS assault five of the terrorists were killed. The sixth, who tried to pass himself off as on of the hostages, was identified by the real hostages and captured alive.

This was in line with British government policy and the rules of engagement at the time, that negotiations were to be exhausted and either a hostage killed or their deaths an imminent certainty before the civil authorities would hand over to the SAS and an armed rescue attempted.

However, during their reconnaissance of the embassy’s roof on the first night of the siege the SAS discovered that there was a skylight leading into a room on the fourth floor that could be accessed without difficulty. One SAS operator actually entered the building, walked to the top landing of the central stairs before withdrawing again to the roof. The option was therefore available to carry out a silent breach of the fourth floor and assaulting down the building before any hostages had been killed. This wasn’t done because, as noted earlier it was not in line with govt. policy and the ROE of the time and would have been extra-judicial killing and subject to criminal prosecution.

Things have moved on. These days the likelihood of a peaceful, negotiated resolution in these situations has shrunk virtually to nil, making an early breach, if seen as feasible, the best chance of all of the hostages coming out alive.

But what if the government or the police commanders concluded that the terrorists were determined to kill their hostages and the SAS were ordered to assault the embassy?

How would the British public and world opinion respond to an assault that resulted in one or two hostage’s lives being lost and that killed five of the six terrorists before all lines of negotiation were exhausted?
 

Riain

Banned
Those terrorists beseiged the Embassy in order to get independence for arabistan, a wealthy (surprise, surprise) little section of Iran. They used hostages as leverage and dragged it out. These days terrorists use suicide bombing to get what they want, they don't fart around, they just kill as many people as they can.

That's the difference, the Princess Gate terrorists used hostages as a bargaining chip hoping to get concessions and escape which means they can be strung along and hostages rescued. These days they have to be instanly killed so they don't kill dozens or thousands of people. As you know in our legal system you don't just unleash the army on home soil without a very good reason.
 

Commissar

Banned
Terrorist is undefinable and a meaningless term.

The proper term here is Insurgent.

That said, once that access was found, SAS should have immediately assaulted the Insurgents.
As for the reaction, not being British, I can't say, but I would certainly approve of the assault on the Insurgents.
 
No the correct phrase is Terrorist not insurgent. Insurgents operate on there own soil against a occupying army,Terrorists operate on foriegn soil against civilian targets. Either way both deserve a double tap to the head

As for an earlier assault if the SAS isnt allowed by the ROE send in a Met firearms team they had several trained in hostage rescue in 80. But in truth the op itself was fairly flawless,accounting for Mr Murphy. A lot of the sucess is due to planning something they mightn't had time for if not for the negotiations.
 

Commissar

Banned
No the correct phrase is Terrorist not insurgent. Insurgents operate on there own soil against a occupying army,Terrorists operate on foriegn soil against civilian targets. Either way both deserve a double tap to the head

Wrong on all counts. American Revolutionaries were Insurgents and attacked British Forces and Civilians throughout the world.

Terrorist is a meaningless term that is undefinable with no accepted definition in any law.
 

Riain

Banned
They were called Terrorists at the time and I've never heard them called anything different since. Just like tactics since 1980 the use of the word Terrorsist has changed over time so that people now argue over it.

The law at the time didn't allow an immediate assault, as I said earlier at the time you couldn't use the army on home soil and risk the lives of hostages without a bloody good cause.
 

Cook

Banned
Terrorist is undefinable and a meaningless term.

They seized an embassy building and held twenty six people hostage at gunpoint, threatening to kill them unless their demands were met. They then proceeded to kill one of the hostages and threatened to kill another every hour unless the police and British government gave in to their demands, at which point the initiative was taken away from them.

They were, most assuredly using terror as their means, making them terrorists.

Wrong on all counts. American Revolutionaries were Insurgents and attacked British Forces and Civilians throughout the world.

To my knowledge no Lexington Minutemen took hostages in central London.

The law at the time didn't allow an immediate assault, as I said earlier at the time you couldn't use the army on home soil and risk the lives of hostages without a bloody good cause.

This is the point; the negotiator’s hands were tied. They had no sway with the Iranian Government, who had stated publicly that it would not negotiate, considered the terrorists to be American agents and said the hostages wanted to be martyrs. Likewise the British government, because of international agreement, and a hardened resolve not to surrender to terrorism, was not going to let the Terrorists leave the country freely. So either the terrorists surrendered peacefully or they killed a hostage. Two of the negotiators suffered minor mental breakdowns during the siege due to the pressure of negotiations, knowing as they did that they had no room to move and concede anything meaningful. If the terrorists were resolute, which many thought them to be (and they subsequently showed they were) the end would inevitably be bloody.

In such a situation it isn’t unreasonable to consider the option of ‘ending this now’ sometime prior to the death of first hostage.

How would the public react to the deaths of one or two hostages in such a scenario?
 
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Actually Commissar the American Revolutionaries were just that Revolutionaries not insurgents nor terrorists, BTW my definitions are the official US Army designations I stand by them.

You are also forgetting the Armed Units of the London Metropolitian Police which even in 80 were cross training at Hereford. You dont really need the SAS to solve the problem. Just have the intial assault be done by Bobbies there more than well trained enough to pull it off. I mean c'mon there dipshit Tangos with little or no real training. Its like sending the NY Yankees to play a high school team hell even my own departments SWAT team couldve cleared the building in less than 5 mins and there only 8 of us.

Making the use of the SAS palatable to the public is fairly easy it was obvious negotiations were going nowhere. Not mentioning the fact that RA units were used every day on UK soil in Northern Ireland sure its not central London but it is Crown territory.
 
It would depend on how early the assault happened, if you go in too soon then you look very impulsive and if hostages died then it would upset a lot of people. It doesnt matter that they might have died anyway, it would look like the government got scared and jumped the gun and got people killed that didnt need to die.
That kind of situation could bring down a PM.

Maggie would have known this so I cant see any reason why she would order an earlier attack, she certainly wouldnt have done it before the terrorists killed anyone as there was no legal basis for doing so anyway.

Say what you will about her, ruthless, coldhearted, evil, but she certainly wasnt stupid.
 
Legal definitions of terrorism:

"the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public"
UK Terrorism Act 2000

"the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents"
U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

Admittedly there is a lot of disagreement around the world as to what a terrorist is, and these definitions can also be used to describe the actions of governments as a whole. But it is still an act that can be defined and is therefore appropriate to use in this case

An Insurgent is something else, although there can of course be some crossover depending on their actions.
Interesting article on the difference

http://www.terrorism-research.com/insurgency/
 
The senior PT17 (the predecessor to today's CO19) on the spot in 1980 was not sanguine about the probable success of an assault by his men. IIRC there were only about a dozen PT17 officers available and they were not trained to the same degree as the SAS in hostage rescue, or as well equipped. IIRC the SAS used something like 40 troopers to carry out the actual assault, though I'll need to check Michael J Waldron's book again to confirm what the police had on site before the arrival of THEM.
It's hindsight to say that the hostage takers were third division while the cops were Premier League, to use a bad football analogy. The authorities could not have known that.

Today CO19 could certainly do what Pagoda Troop did in 1980 with a high chance of success, but probably not back then.

On the other issue I'd say that the Colonists were rebels, not revolutionaries, no matter what the Americans like to call them. It was a War of Independence, or even a Civil War to some extent (at least as much as the ACW), not a revolution in say, the French, or Russian sense.
 
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On the "what is terrorism?" issue, the key differentiator IMO is this:

If your organisation attacks noncombatant targets then they are performing terrorist actions.

If they attack combatant targets then they aren't perfoming terrorist actions.

Of course it is fairly hard to draw the line at times. Clearly the army are combattants, but are the police combatants? You can probably argue they are, but is a company that supplies the police a combattant? Is a bank that transfers government funds to the police a combattant?At the other end of the scale, it seems pretty clear to me that a worker in a branch of the bank that transfers money to the police is not a combatant.
 

Riain

Banned
You are also forgetting the Armed Units of the London Metropolitian Police which even in 80 were cross training at Hereford. You dont really need the SAS to solve the problem. Just have the intial assault be done by Bobbies there more than well trained enough to pull it off. I mean c'mon there dipshit Tangos with little or no real training. Its like sending the NY Yankees to play a high school team hell even my own departments SWAT team couldve cleared the building in less than 5 mins and there only 8 of us.

The problem isn't defeating the terrorists in the battle, it's rescuing the hostages. IOTL one of the terrorists fired his weapon at the hostages during the assault and another threw a grenade into the hostages. The SAS was trained to kill the terrorists as they hid amongst the hostages, which is no mean feat and beyond even the best trained police units. Indeed most police units have a Special Ops Group but still have SAS style CT units.
 
No the correct phrase is Terrorist not insurgent. Insurgents operate on there own soil against a occupying army,Terrorists operate on foriegn soil against civilian targets. Either way both deserve a double tap to the head
But wait, isnt the Iranian embassy counted as Iranian soil? So insurgent would be the correct phrase here according to your definition. :confused:
 
Checking 'Armed Police - The Police use of firearms since 1945' by Michael J Waldron, the Met had 9 officers from PT17 with the sort of training to go into the building available on site for an IA if the terrorists started shooting. The SAS eventually used 60.

IMVHO, yes you do need the SAS to solve the situation because AFAIK in '80 PT17 did not have stun grenades, some of the other equipment the SAS CRW used, or the ability to abseil from the roof and conduct an explosive entry.
Best the Met could do was probably to assault the building from the ground floor and maybe the first.
 
Technically I'm not sure the legal theory is correct.

While it might be correct on British soil, but the Iranian embassy is technically Iranian soil. (as all embassies are technically soil of the power represented by the embassy).

And if some Brits shoot some terrorists/insurgents on Iranian soil, it would entirely plausible for the British government, DPP, courts, etc., to say that such activities are beyond the jurisdiction of the UK.
 
No the correct phrase is Terrorist not insurgent. Insurgents operate on there own soil against a occupying army,Terrorists operate on foriegn soil against civilian targets. Either way both deserve a double tap to the head

...I`m going to have to strongly disagree with that. Did the chinese guerrellia`s fighting Japan in the thirties deserve "a double tap to the head"?
 
The definition of terrorism is irrelevant, they are criminals holding people at gunpoint. The issue is that, if the SAS attacked them before a hostage was killed, they would be blamed for any hostage being killed and the notion would take hold that negotiations would have prevailed and loss of life avoided.

If the attack goes ahead early and no hostages are killed, there's no PR problem - there may be an issue of extra-judicial killing but this is the 1980s so the government will successfuly wave it away as they did with numerous breaches of civil rights. And it's not impossible that the hostages would be saved - being caught unawares and at a point where they're still relatively calm and think things will go positively, the hostage-takers might be less trigger happy. But if hostages are killed then it's going to be seen as a bloody mess.

Whitelaw will resign as Home Secretary, and probably fairly soon. He will take the blame on his own shoulders to prevent wider blame being heaped on the government (successfully), the relevant civil servants, and the police and military (less successfully). Assuming the assault took place following a government decision, the organisation developed for dealing with the crisis (COBRA) will not, as it did in OTL, become the default way of dealing with emergencies. If the assault somehow took place without government approval but at the behest of SAS or police officers on the ground, they'd be sacked and the chain of command would be put under scrutiny.

Because of the incident, the SAS became very public and very popular - but apparently, the MOD had previously been of the opinion that maintaining it in peace time was a waste of money. So, might the SAS be disbanded in the wake of a perceived cock-up? If members of the SAS decided, upon finding the open skylight, to engage without explicit orders to do so, I think the whole regiment might well be disbanded for that alone - assumed to have developed a culture of unaccountability and rogue behaviour.
 

Cook

Banned
Thankyou Gregg, at least someone can keep on subject without tying themselves into a knot examining their own navel for mindless minutiae.

I wasn’t considering an unauthorised breach, that to me would be in the ASB realm so definitely one with authorisation of the Home Secretary.
 
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