The Indo-American Alliance

You’d need to keep the entire Nehru-Gandhi clan out of the scene. They have all been too autocratic of the good of Indian democracy.
In particular Indira Gandhi and Sanjay Gandhi.

Certainly true- a successful Desai premiership bringing development and American investment could be the thing to beat the Nehru-Gandhi clan's dominance. If Indira can be sidelined Sanjay has no chance- he was always a thug who just got to where he was because of his mother.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
In retrospect, a multiethnic nation committed to the ideals of liberal democracy would have been a perfect ally for the US in Asia. If Nehru was just a bit less idealistic how do you think an Indo-American alliance starting in the 1950s could have played out.

In some ways I think 1980s India might have taken the position that China did in the 90's, that of factory to the world. An India more open to foreign investment (coupled with American aid) might well have been played up as the new Arsenal of Democracy in the late Cold War.

I was thinking about this for awhile from the perspective of a gearwhore, and looking up alot of the stuff that India acquired and why it acquired it.

India's got this amazingly eclectic bunch of equipment: even up to the mid-90s, it was operating French Mirage 2000s, British Jaguars, and Soviet MiG 27s. (The last two were designed for the same job, oddly enough)

The one thing that jumps out here, of course, is that America could fill the shoes where the Soviets did. Those MiG-21s which were purchased in the 1960s and 70s may have become Phantoms, especially since Pakistan would probably be trying to get everything it could from China. The American defense industry would love that, as it would end up increasing the production run of what was already the most widely produced American fighter of the Cold War.

The tanks are another matter entirely. Even until very recently, the Main Battle Tanks in the Indian Army were British: the Centurion, and then the famous Vijayanta. What Vickers offered India in the Vijayanta deal is something that I can't see America being willing to match, so I think that that would be safely in British hands.

From what I can dig up, there seems to be this tendency on the part of the Indian military to find a system that works and stick with it, so there might also be Hunters in the arsenal for a long time as well. And if Hawker has a place in the Indian Air Force, then one can hope that the Ajeet will as well.

What does seem to keep popping into mind, though, is the carrier question: an Indian Air Force based around the F-4D or J instead of the MiG-21bis (as they would later move to) puts them in an interesting position around...the late 70s. Britain will be decommissioning the Ark Royal, a carrier that the Royal Navy (just barely) operated Phantoms off of for a number of years.
With a choice between taking on a completely new aircraft along with a carrier (buying the Hermes as the Indian Navy did) or buying the existing carrier and operating an aircraft type that they're already used to, they may want to go with the Ark Royal.

Just some thoughts I had.
 
I very much like this thread

But, if our POD is in the 1950's, then perhaps India would participate in the pact the British had with Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand.

Regardless, I see potentially huge consequences for countries surrounding India, and for its border disputes.
 

Thande

Donor
But, if our POD is in the 1950's, then perhaps India would participate in the pact the British had with Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand.
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I would say not. The scenario Flocc seems to be painting is of an India which allies with the USA because of America's anticolonialist credentials, so India would want to undermine remaining British influence east of Suez.
 
I would say not. The scenario Flocc seems to be painting is of an India which allies with the USA because of America's anticolonialist credentials, so India would want to undermine remaining British influence east of Suez.

A good point, but neither Malaysia nor Singapore were for colonialism, and this is an India more concerned about Soviet Communism and Chinese Communism.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Something else I was thinking about...what about the nuclear tests? Pokrahn and all that? If India could go to America, the champion of non-proliferation in the Cold War, and get an enormous amount of diplomatic, financial, and military support, would it still feel the need for a nuclear weapons program to push against Pakistan with?

An Indian military armed completely by the West facing a Pakistani military doing a North Korean-esque straddle between the Soviets and Chinese would almost certainly be many times more powerful and able to defeat it's Warsaw Pact-armed adversary.
Perhaps the Indians might decide that conventional dominance is enough, especially if the thought of the Ark Royal and other top dollar projects are in the minds of the military?
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
A good point, but neither Malaysia nor Singapore were for colonialism

Not if you ask the Indonesians under Sukarno. There's a spectrum of anti-colonialism and I don't see India taking the Singapore/Malaysia path, not least because they're big enough to take care of themselves.

To the topic, this really messes with the checker pattern of East-West influence in Asia. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic but I have to doubt its ideological credentials when compared to, say, Iran. This could butterfly away the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

It depends how early on India becomes a US ally. Khrushchev didn't support China during the Sino-Indian war because he was trying to keep India on board. That might change in a scenario with a US-Indian alliance. China will still feel like the rug is being pulled out from under the Sino-Soviet alliance when Khrushchev comes to power due to his rapprochement with Washington. Meanwhile, the US can't afford to not recognise the PRC indefinitely as important players in the West were already doing so by the time Nixon did. I think this leads to a more neutral China (with regards to both the superpowers) and could butterfly away the Sino-Vietnamese war and the Khmer Rouge. The junta in Burma might even go down in the long-run.

I have to say, this is looking better than our timeline. Though I am guessing the trade-off is greater risk for bigger wars between India and an East-armed Pakistan. With Soviet moral support, China could actually decide what it wants during the Sino-Indian war and that incident could turn into a mess. The Russians might even finally realise their long-held desire to dip their toes in the Indian ocean. :eek: The presence of a Russian naval base on the Indian Ocean would really drive the Indians nuts since they justifiably consider it an Indian Lake. China is also unlikely to just lets itself be encircled by either superpower, which will probably mitigate a few of the bonuses outlined in the above paragraph.
 
Certainly true- a successful Desai premiership bringing development and American investment could be the thing to beat the Nehru-Gandhi clan's dominance. If Indira can be sidelined Sanjay has no chance- he was always a thug who just got to where he was because of his mother.

Desai would not be able to do much, his govt was a coalition of right wing and left wing parties, they had nothing in common except being anti-congress. Its highly unlikely Desai would be able to do anything. For a radical shift in foreign policy, India would most likely need the Nehru-Gandhi family.

MacCaulay said:
Something else I was thinking about...what about the nuclear tests? Pokrahn and all that? If India could go to America, the champion of non-proliferation in the Cold War, and get an enormous amount of diplomatic, financial, and military support, would it still feel the need for a nuclear weapons program to push against Pakistan with?

Very likely, the entire nuclear program's pace was increased after the USS Enterprise incident in 72. If India knew US was strongly on its side, then the nuclear program may have been slowed down or shelved all together.
 
A good point, but neither Malaysia nor Singapore were for colonialism, and this is an India more concerned about Soviet Communism and Chinese Communism.

Incidentally, I think Indian Socialism might get pushed as a viable alternative- communism acting within a democratic framework.
 
Desai would not be able to do much, his govt was a coalition of right wing and left wing parties, they had nothing in common except being anti-congress. Its highly unlikely Desai would be able to do anything. For a radical shift in foreign policy, India would most likely need the Nehru-Gandhi family.

Desai in TTL might with a few tweaks be able to provide a viable alternative. Throw in a car crash for Indira or something and it's still plausible.
 
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I have to say, this is looking better than our timeline. Though I am guessing the trade-off is greater risk for bigger wars between India and an East-armed Pakistan.

I don't know if that's really that much of a risk. Even IOTL India just outweighs Pakistan too much. More Indo-Pakistani wars might be expensive but so long as nukes don't enter the equation the outcome of any of them won't be in question.

With Soviet moral support, China could actually decide what it wants during the Sino-Indian war and that incident could turn into a mess.

That's true but, having said that, the nature of the Indo-Chinese border makes war somewhat difficult...
 
China could start a second Sino-Indian War by propping up a Marxist government in Nepal the 1960's. While also having better relations with the Soviets (nothing rosy, more like avoiding the Sino-Soviet border conflict while still arguing with Russia). Could this cause the US to ally with India?
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
China could start a second Sino-Indian War by propping up a Marxist government in Nepal the 1960's. While also having better relations with the Soviets (nothing rosy, more like avoiding the Sino-Soviet border conflict while still arguing with Russia). Could this cause the US to ally with India?

Uncle Joe kicking on for a few more years could maintain the Sino-Soviet relationship for the requisite amount of time for this.
 
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