The impossible a reality: Novgorod unites Russia

Anyway guys thi s is a tl i heavily researched. Unlike my previous ones I hope to make this accurate and plausbible so please give me a chance. it is a tl with the pod at Shelon river where Ivan himself foolishly joins the Muscovites and psov mercinaries in battle against the Novgorodians and dies causing muscovy to collapse into civil war and Novgorod seizing the opportunity to take control of Muscovy to secure its grain supply.

Shenlon River July 14th, 1471




Archbishop elect of Novgorod Dmitry Isakevich stared out at the pathetic Muscovite army. With aid from most of Europe Novgorod assembled an army of 30000 strong troops while the Muscovites only had 5000. On this day Ivan III decided to participate in this battle to crush the Novrossyans himself. The two forces met on the left bank of the Shenlon River. Dimity stared at the small army of Muscovites. Pskov mercenaries whom he deemed more terrifying aided the Muscovites. However before the battle the Dimitry convinced the archbishop to focus the army on the main muscovite force. Dimitry and 10000 Novrossyan Boyars awaited in the forests to the north of the River. The battle began.


Ivan saw the Archbishop and his force. He had been told the Archbishop had 30000 troops but it turned out that he had a far less number. This was quite strange indeed. Suddenly the archbishop launched an all out assault on the Pskov mercenaries but in doing so he left the flanks exposed; seizing this opportunity Ivan ordered his troops to invade the exposed flank of the Novrossyans. This proved to be a fatal mistake, seizing the opportunity Dimitry and the 10000 Boyars charged out of the forest and onto Ivan’s exposed flank. The Muscovites were caught completely by surprise as the two armies clashed fiercely. Ivan tried to rally his troops but all was futile. The archbishop was finally given breathing space as his troops overwhelmed the Pskov mercenaries who soon broke rank and fled the battlefield after suffering thousands of casualties, and with them gone the muscovite force was surrounded. Ivan saw situation as being unwinnable but he would not surrender for in doing so he would lose his pride. Better to die a warrior than as a prisoner and with this thought he raised his sword to the air rallying his troops and with them he charged at the oncoming Novrossyan soldiers and it was said in the annals of Novgorod that Ivan fought fiercely, yet it was to no avail. A Novrossyan spearmen stabbed Ivan in the heart and the great warrior fell from his horse as he fell on the floor. Ivan lost his life instantly and the warrior moved no more. The Muscovites were shocked that their leader was dead soon broke ranks and the battle turned to a complete route. The battle ended with 4000 Muscovites dead, and only 3000 Novrossyan troops were killed. A complete and utter victory.


Back in Moscow news reached the Moscow Boyars about the death of Ivan. The Boyars grew incredibly angry, the so-called king led them into a war they could not win and soon revolted against the royal family. The young prince Ivan was murdered. Soon chaos gripped the lands of Muscovite as various Boyars raised private armies to fight each other for supremacy. In this manner the royal treasury of Muscovy was drained financially. With the death of Ivan the Muscovites broke into bitter civil war. Now normally such a war would not be disastrous except the Muscovites essentially destroyed themselves. Roving bands of Mercenaries terrorized and pillaged the countryside while armies put to death whole towns and burned anything and everything that was alive.


Dimitry triumphantly entered Novgorod where the Novgorod merchants who declared him to be a hero praised him. The Archbishop of Novgorod personally proclaimed Dimitry as a true defender of orthodoxy. But Dimitry was not satisfied, he faced he noble counsel the veche the true leaders of Novgorod and gave a speech that would make him immortal. “People of Novgorod I come to you to inform you that we are in trouble. The Duchies of Muscovy and Tver have taken our grain source and are starving our people. They want to destroy us. However believe in me, I have seen a vision. Last night our holy lord came before me in my dreams and he proclaimed oh holy son of Novgorod Muscovy lies in chaos the heretics of Muscovy have greatly angered me, if you wish to prevent the downfall of Novgorod lead your men to Muscovy, you have the blessings of god for victory. SO I say to you, let me lead the army to Moscow, Moscow must fall, for God wills it!!!!” This speech completely stunned the Council who quickly agreed at the archbishops urging. SO the 25000-man army of Novrossyans from the previous battle of Shelon marched for Moscow led by the newly proclaimed Prince of Novgorod Dimitry.


The Novrossians soon invaded Moscow, but they met little resistance, the people of the lands around Muscovy were half starved, what they faced were peasant rabble. The civil war had taken its toll on Muscovy, soon the novossyans met little resistance as city after city fell to Novgorod. Finally Dimity arrived at the capitol Muscovy and was shocked at what he saw. Muscovy had become a mere shadow of its former glory as peasants huddled in the streets, virtually no resistance was given to the Novgorod soldiers. Just recently Muscovy had been sacked by a rich Boyar who executed the remnants of the royal family, he stole all the loot from Moscow to bring to his fiefdom. So Moscow surrendered o Novgorod. With Moscow taken the Muscovites lost all heart and within 5 years all of Muscovy lay in Novrossyan hands and soon it was annexed. Dimitry returned to Novgorod a hero and the savior of the Rus. With Muscovy gone the major threat to Novgorod was averted, but trouble was brewing.

Sweden had already launched 17 attacks on Novgorod and now was amassing an army. Dimity’s final challenge before securing power was to defeat the Swedes. Novgorod faced off against its most bitter rival.
 
Very interesting...

I would assume that a Novgorodian Russia would be extremely different from a Moscovite Russia! Interested to see where you take this.[/Quote=God-Eater of the Marshes]By the Way Lithuania didnt intervene because at the time they were under the rule of Polan and Poland was busy with its own wars against the teutons and the crimean tartars and because Novogorod mobilized early it advanced quickly and crushed the now greatly destroyed Mucovy before Lithuania could act against either power.
 
it is a tl with the pod at Shelon river where Ivan himself foolishly joins the Muscovites and psov mercinaries in battle against the Novgorodians and dies causing muscovy to collapse into civil war
That seems really implausible. This 5000 troops were only vanguard of Muscovite Army led by Daniil Kholmskiy ( and that this vanguard could smash main novgorodian force wasn't expected by muscovites themselfs). But there were other troops- Striga Obolensky corps and the main force led by Ivan III himself. While leading his troops in battle himself is not the thing you expect from Ivan III( he was an adept of mongolian style warfare- where commander never risks himself but gives his troops orders from safe place) it can still be possible, though unlikely. But doing so with vanguard, not with main force seemes more like ASB.
Nongorodians probably indeed could defeat or even destroy Kholmskiy force ( winning the Shelon River battle) doing so with main Muscovite force is somewhat beyond republic ability in my opinion.
 
Suddenly the archbishop launched an all out assault on the Pskov mercenaries but in doing so he left the flanks exposed; seizing this opportunity Ivan ordered his troops to invade the exposed flank of the Novrossyans.
AFAIK Pskov was allied with Moscow.
By the Way Lithuania didnt intervene because at the time they were under the rule of Polan and Poland was busy with its own wars against the teutons and the crimean tartars and because Novogorod mobilized early it advanced quickly and crushed the now greatly destroyed Mucovy before Lithuania could act against either power.
More precisely Poland and Lithuania was in personal union. I know that some people don't see a difference, but still...
This had more to do with Kasimir's ignorance of Lithuanian politics, than with war against Teutonic knights that ended in 1466 btw.
 
AFAIK Pskov was allied with Moscow.
More precisely Poland and Lithuania was in personal union. I know that some people don't see a difference, but still...
This had more to do with Kasimir's ignorance of Lithuanian politics, than with war against Teutonic knights that ended in 1466 btw.
Oh I see. But here Pskov is on Moscows side at the battle Pskov was with Moskow against Novgorod. Technically Novgor was only suposed to face Pskov but got ambushed by the Muscovites. Here the ambush doesnt happen the muscovite make a blunder and lose, likewise the pskovites.
Also fine if not Teutonic war than a war against the Crimean tartars.
 
That seems really implausible. This 5000 troops were only vanguard of Muscovite Army led by Daniil Kholmskiy ( and that this vanguard could smash main novgorodian force wasn't expected by muscovites themselfs). But there were other troops- Striga Obolensky corps and the main force led by Ivan III himself. While leading his troops in battle himself is not the thing you expect from Ivan III( he was an adept of mongolian style warfare- where commander never risks himself but gives his troops orders from safe place) it can still be possible, though unlikely. But doing so with vanguard, not with main force seemes more like ASB.
Nongorodians probably indeed could defeat or even destroy Kholmskiy force ( winning the Shelon River battle) doing so with main Muscovite force is somewhat beyond republic ability in my opinion.
Oh really didnt know that I always thougt their were only 5000 muscovite soldiers at the battle?
However in this timeline Ivan gets overconfident. he knows how teribly weak novgorod is and underestimates DImity's force. THus he gets killed. About the main force it collapsed because with Ivan's death and his disaster reaching Moskow the royal family is overthrown by the noble boyars and Moskow falls into civil war making the main muscovite force esssentially useless.
 
Well, the main force was a long way away. You know, there are a lot of problems with you scenario.
a) Ivan the Great wasn't the guy who could become overconfident- he was the bloody paragon of caution.
b) even if he could become overconfident he would never leave the main force behind him such a long way( and the distance between vanguard and main force was several days of march). Moreover between Kholmsy vanguard and main force there was yet another muscovite army.
c)He wasn't in fact used to participate in any battles himself. He was always giving his forces orders from safe place. If he was say 18 he could probably join battle in vanguard. In 1471 he was ruling his country for more than 10 years being a general for at least 15 years. There's no reason for him to show his courage in direct onslaught.
So the only chance of killing Ivan III in battle could be encirclment of main Muscovite force and destroying it. But that coulb be VERY tricky cause 5000 Muscovite vanguard destroyed 30000 Novgorodian main force. Even defeating 20000 Muscovian main force would be VERY implausible, destroyng it and killing/capturing prince himself is total ASB.

But even his death couldn't destroy or seriously weaken Muscovian state. The guy had 4(four) alive brothers in 1471. The Grand Duchy will gast pass to the eldest of them.
 
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