The "Ideal" American Dream

Before I ask this question, I want to define what "ideal" means in this situation. The term "ideal" can mean a billion things to a billion people, yet in this scenario, "ideal" would be defined by the very best intentions of the Founding Fathers (although African slaves and Native Americans got the lower end of the stick).

What if after the American Revolution, slavery had been immediately abolished, Native Americans obtain fair land rights and cultural protection under the constitution, immigrants were more accepted by the American populous, and any other progression in human rights at the time may look like? What kind of cultural, economic, and social implications would this have on the US and the world up until the 21st Century? Would events such as the Canadian Rebellions of 1837 lead to US annexation of the region? Would the Black Hills be under the ownership of the Lakota Tribe (and maintain there nomadic way of life)? Would the Trail of Tears ever occur in this timeline? What about the Civil War? Civil Rights?

Note: This is by no means realistic. Its just a fun exercise in Alternate History.
I'm curious about what you guys have to say :)
 
Yo, I posted this same thing in ASB because I can't think of a POD that would make this possible. I would imagine Natives would assimilate to be amicable with the USA, but on the whole expect the massive US, as tolerance for Catholics, would lead to a massive federation.
 
Yo, I posted this same thing in ASB because I can't think of a POD that would make this possible. I would imagine Natives would assimilate to be amicable with the USA, but on the whole expect the massive US, as tolerance for Catholics, would lead to a massive federation.
Oh gosh, I'm sorry I didn't credit you. You wouldn't mind posting a link to your post?

That idea seems pretty reasonable. Imagining a large American Federation is defiantly something to ponder over.
 
I wouldn't say its a copout. Its still an interesting idea none the less :)

I have a challenge I'd like to make in this POD: what if the Natives did NOT westernize but still pledged their allegiance to the more tolerant US? What if their reserved lands, especially nomadic lands, replaced the need for national park systems in the 1900's (acting like some form of park rangers)? As impossible as this sounds, its interesting to theorize.

This can be a separate focus on the POD as we can mainly talk about the entire POD.

Sorry Canada, but you no longer exist.
 
I was thinking we need to have more active abolitionism as one of the main reasons people wanted independence for America. Native Americans can integrate by having private tracts of land and eventual native states, there may be substantial mulatto, creole, and mestizo populations.
 
I was thinking we need to have more active abolitionism as one of the main reasons people wanted independence for America. Native Americans can integrate by having private tracts of land and eventual native states, there may be substantial mulatto, creole, and mestizo populations.

I'm also curious about the public response to immediate abolition. Would that lead to an instant Civil War or a More Perfect Union from the get go?
 

Skallagrim

Banned
If abolition were somehow pushed through at the outset (either in '76 or '87 or at a point in between, somehow) you'd certainly get secession at once. But no civil war, mind you, since the Soth was relatively more powerful back then (far more powerful) and its secession would either mean (in '76) "we reject independence" or (in '87) "we reject the Constitution and we don't want to join this Union".

You need a POD further back, both for abolition and for decent treatment of the Native Americans. And it's very tricky to achieve. However, in OTL, the abolitionist movement was a purely moral affair. Contrary to the belief of some, slavery was not phased out because it was becoming less profitable. The abolitionists in Britain wanted it gone on moral (often religious) grounds, and that's why Britain ultimately got rid of it. If you can get that kind of moral sentiment to rise up earlier, you have a shot at this outcome. The problem quickly becomes that such a fundamental change would deeply alter the specifics (not to mention the fundamental ideas) of the American revolution. Getting a USA that's basically as in OTL, except with the less savoury elements excised, is very difficult. Either the POD can't get you to where you want to go, or the POD is so early that it changes more than you want.

All that being said, we may simply assume - for the sake of argument - a hypothetical POD that fits the bill. That's the easy way, and tends a bit towards ASB, but it's valid.

The alternative is to forego the notion of "everything is as it should be right away", and instead try to set up a scenario where the USA is slightly better at the outset, allowing for a rapid evolution towarsds the "ideal" (i.e. within the first few decades). There are things you might use to get there:

-- First of all, let's assume a POD whereby an Anglophone Enlightenment writer jots down a bunch of ideas that were more well-known in France at the time in OTL. Some of the French Enlightenment thinkers had a bit more radicalism to them than did the ones across the Channel. Let's change that, at least. An English thinker writes a very thorough case against slavery, and for freedom of religion etc. -- Basically, a useful, well-written handbook for human rights and toleration is there to inform the American patriots.

-- Let us assume that this fictional work gets popular, and that the British authorities crack down on it. It becomes correspondingly more popular in America, while certain political radicals in Britain are exiled to America, or have to flee. All this works to build a broader support for such ideas in America.

-- The struggle for independence rolls arounds much as it did in OTL, and at the same time. Note that Jefferson's initial draft of the Declaration in OTL contained passages openly critical of slavery. It is assumed that these were removed at the behest of the Southern states (although that's not actually known for a fact, as far ass I'm aware, just an educated guess). If we assume a somewhat tweaked intellectual milieu around the time of independence (even in the Southern states), we could conceivably keep those bits in.

-- Likewise, Jefferson (occasionally) had ideas regarding "Indian Policy" that might have been useful. At some times, he supported a "civilising" policy, but at other times, he expressed support for a policy of "alliance". The latter idea has always been vague, since it was never implemented in OTL, but it's always struck me as something like the Prioncely States in the Raj. Basically, the Natives polities recognise the federal government as supreme authority, but otherwise remain autonomous and self-governing.

-- A key factor in causing OTL "Indian Policy" was the conflict with the Iroqois, who remained hostile (with British backing). George Washington wrote out his "six point policy" in response to that specific conflict, and that policy was the basis for all that followed. If Canada had fallen to the USA during the ARW... well, then the Iroqois would have had no choice but to surrender. That may well have led to a peace treaty along the above lines (i.e. autonomy within the USA). One may assume that this precedent could alter Washington's policy, would sway Jefferson and others to the "autonomy" camp permanently, and prevent lots of horrible things.

-- While we're on the subject of Canada: a sub-POD might be that some of those exiled British radicals of this ATl end up in Canada, and successfully manage to get just that bit more support for independence. In any case, Canada secedes from Britain. Ideally, Britiain loses most (if not all) of its North American colonies. A useful side-effect of that is that the larger USA now has a. a bigger North (i.e. more free states) and b. a northern region full of Francophone Catholics.

-- Supposing that freedom of religion is more of a deal for the Americans, this might end up being good for Quebec. More respect for Catholics, explicit constitutional language forbidding states from religious discrimination... maybe an explicit expression in the Constitution to state that the USA has no official language?

-- Likewise, since recent ideological exiles play a bigger part in this ATL's revolution, it's conceivable that this USA explicitly puts in its Constitution that exiles from other nations are welcome to seek safe haven in America. (Thus changing the very basis of immigration policy from the get-go.)

-- Regarding slavery again: the Northwest Ordinance forbade the expansion of slavery into that area. An ATL with a stronger anti-slavery streak and more northern states could see an ordinance prohibiting the spread of of slavery into any newly gained territory. Slavery would be limited to the initial slave states, which would weaken their power.

-- Similarly, instead of a compromise involving an eventual ban, this USA could could conceivably ban the importation of slaves as of the moment of the Constititution's ratification.

-- It seems unlikely that the slave states would tolerate not having their slaves counted for Congressional representation, but perhaps there could be a 1/2 compromise instead of a 3/5 compromise, or something. Anything to give the slave states less political power.

-- Given all the above, one may conceive of a USA that from the outset includes (Upper) Canada, Lower Canada/Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Cape Breton (still a separate colony back then) and St. John's Island (not yet renamed to Prince Edward Island at that time). That's six extra states up north. (Newfoundland will presumably stay with Britain; Labrador was at that time still part of Upper Canada).

-- The Northwest Territory could be cut up into smaller states than in OTL (as Jefferson actually wanted), but at the same time, sizable parts of it would be turned into one or more autonomous Native American states, so as far as Senate representation is concerned, that region stays about the same, I'd expect.

-- Nevertheless, in this ATL scenario, we may expect all northern states to abolish slavery almost at once. The result is that we have more free states than in OTL, and that any and all expansion will only tip that balance further. Following the Louisiana Purchase (let us assume that it still happens, in more r less the same timeframe), it is only a matter of time until enough new free states are admitted to force a Constitutional amendment abolishing slavery throughout the Union. (Assuming a somewhat similar expansion of the USA and admittance of states, a two-thirds majority of free states should be attained by the 1830s or so.)

-- We get a "slaver's rebellion" or something in the 1830s, no doubt - a sort of conflation of the Nullification Crisis and the Civil War - but with far more free states involved, the South can't really hope to win this one.

-- Also relevant is the fact that if the slave trade is outlawed as of 1789, there are considerably fewer slaves in the USA. Lots were imported when the horizon clause was implemented regarding the slave trade, because the slavers knew the "well would dry up" after that, so to speak. That last, huge wave of slave importation is prevented here. Fewer slaves means the Deep South likely has to buy up more slaves from the Upper South, meaning fewer and fewer slaves there. Which in turn means that schemes for compensated manumission become more realistic. So suppose Congress passes an amendment that provides for compensated manumission, but at the same time compels the freeing of all slaves by, say, 1840? The Upper South, in all likelihood, will take the deal. So only the Deep South, unwilling to accept, attempts to secede in the end. And gets crushed.

-- Hopefully, this alt-USA, in a timeline where the secession conflict really is about freeing the slaves for the North (rather than being about preserving the Union, as in OTL), can set up a far better version of Reconstruction. Give it ten years of drastic reforms, and things might be looking a whole lot better. Not to mention that after this whole crisis, we may expect a constitutional amendment granting the franchise to all voting males, at least. Decades earlier than in OTL, that is.


...well, it's not really an "ideal" from the outset, but getting there by the 1840s or so isn't that bad, is it?
 
...well, it's not really an "ideal" from the outset, but getting there by the 1840s or so isn't that bad, is it?
If the civilizing policy was successful and natives started to own property while an abolitionist movement in the previous decades and still continued that could provide enough impetus for the end of slavery and native integration.
 
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