The Ice-Cold Embrace.

I can't see how this changes the nature of the Soviet-German War, and if anything it probably makes things worse. But I'll wait and see.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
The Fact Manstein and the rest of the Generals will actually be allowed to do their job. It will probably end the same way but will be a hell of a lot bloodier.
 
I'm not seeing the dystopia so far, but my interest is piqued anyhow.

MOAR FOR THE MOAR GOD!
I started the timeline on 1st August 1941. I am up to the 2nd August 1941. Give me time......

Am working on an update now.
 
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The Fact Manstein and the rest of the Generals will actually be allowed to do their job. It will probably end the same way but will be a hell of a lot bloodier.

Mhm, this is one of the many myths of the early Soviet-German War; that the German generals had any better understanding of the strategic situation than Hitler. In reality they were just as deluded and overconfident as he was. In many cases his decisions were more sound than theirs. The most significant is the decision to "Turn South" in late August 1941 rather than resume the advance on Moscow. Halder, Guderian, and other generals presented plans to Hitler to resume the advance on Moscow in August, as opposed to sending Army Group Center to aid Army Group South, which was having diffuculty forcing the Dnieper on it's own. Hitler rejected Halder's proposal, and strenuous objections from AGC's commander merely reinforced his decision. Thus Army Group Center did not resume it's advance towards Moscow, and instead turned towards Kiev, destroying multiple Soviet armies in the process.

Goering, and any other party official making the decisions, didn't have the "hands on" mentality of Hitler, nor did they have the force of will to maintain their decisions in the face of determined arguments from the generals. Thus the turn south will most likely not occur without Hitler.

The results of this will be disastrous. In August 1941 Western, Briansk, and Reserve Fronts were at their full strength and receiving a host of reinforcements. They had halted Army Group Center's eastward advance for much of July and August, and launched several major strategic counteroffensives. An attempt by AGC to resume the advance will be bloody, and much slower than OTL Typhoon.

Further, AGS will have to force the Dnieper, and violently so, and by itself will lack the strength to achieve the same results as the OTL Battle of Kiev. Thus AGC will have over a million Soviet troops sitting on it's overextended right flank, a disaster in the making. Further without the Southwestern front being destroyed STAVKA can concentrate the bulk of it's reinforcements to stymie the German drive on Moscow and Leningrad.

Speaking of Leningrad, AGC's turn south freed up reserves to be shifted north to support the August-September drive on Leningrad, which still failed. Without those reserves Soviet successes will be even greater.

In conclusion, losing Hitler in August is probably the worst possible proposition and will lead to major German defeats later in 1941.

David Glantz argues this very well in his books Barbarossa Derailed and Operation Barbarossa, and in several companion essays availiable online.

Sorry to derail the thread, please continue!
 
need moar (this post made so I can locate the thread in my profile, and also to boost the OP's ego;))
 
Mhm, this is one of the many myths of the early Soviet-German War; that the German generals had any better understanding of the strategic situation than Hitler. In reality they were just as deluded and overconfident as he was. In many cases his decisions were more sound than theirs. The most significant is the decision to "Turn South" in late August 1941 rather than resume the advance on Moscow. Halder, Guderian, and other generals presented plans to Hitler to resume the advance on Moscow in August, as opposed to sending Army Group Center to aid Army Group South, which was having diffuculty forcing the Dnieper on it's own. Hitler rejected Halder's proposal, and strenuous objections from AGC's commander merely reinforced his decision. Thus Army Group Center did not resume it's advance towards Moscow, and instead turned towards Kiev, destroying multiple Soviet armies in the process.

Goering, and any other party official making the decisions, didn't have the "hands on" mentality of Hitler, nor did they have the force of will to maintain their decisions in the face of determined arguments from the generals. Thus the turn south will most likely not occur without Hitler.

The results of this will be disastrous. In August 1941 Western, Briansk, and Reserve Fronts were at their full strength and receiving a host of reinforcements. They had halted Army Group Center's eastward advance for much of July and August, and launched several major strategic counteroffensives. An attempt by AGC to resume the advance will be bloody, and much slower than OTL Typhoon.

Further, AGS will have to force the Dnieper, and violently so, and by itself will lack the strength to achieve the same results as the OTL Battle of Kiev. Thus AGC will have over a million Soviet troops sitting on it's overextended right flank, a disaster in the making. Further without the Southwestern front being destroyed STAVKA can concentrate the bulk of it's reinforcements to stymie the German drive on Moscow and Leningrad.

Speaking of Leningrad, AGC's turn south freed up reserves to be shifted north to support the August-September drive on Leningrad, which still failed. Without those reserves Soviet successes will be even greater.

In conclusion, losing Hitler in August is probably the worst possible proposition and will lead to major German defeats later in 1941.

David Glantz argues this very well in his books Barbarossa Derailed and Operation Barbarossa, and in several companion essays availiable online.

Sorry to derail the thread, please continue!

So this could be a Stalinist dystopia? Lions and tigers and bears oh my.
 
Before I begin, this is going to be an incredibly dystopian timeline. All feedback/comments/suggestions are welcome, indeed I would be delighted to hear from anyone about it. Without any further ado, here is the introduction..

Subscribed. Your Halifax timeline was fresh take on conventional wisdom and well written too. Hope for the best for this one!
 
Interested in what sort of way this way this will lead to more dystopia, so subscribed.

Germany crashes and burns even harder than OTL and takes a lot of Poles & Jews with it. Stalin's U.S.S.R comes out of the war in far better shape and imposes Stalinist goverments over more nations than OTL. Then turns his attention on Japan...

Seriously with Hitler in a coma they're pretty screwed for all this insanity was the only thing that kept th Nazi regime going, and any military junta that might try to take power would likely make an even bigger hash of the war-effort than Hitler.


The Fact Manstein and the rest of the Generals will actually be allowed to do their job. It will probably end the same way but will be a hell of a lot bloodier.
Those generals had a nasty habit of shifting the blame onto dead men post-WW2. The fact is they could b running the whole bloody country and IMHO would if anything lose the war sooner than OTL

Mhm, this is one of the many myths of the early Soviet-German War; that the German generals had any better understanding of the strategic situation than Hitler. In reality they were just as deluded and overconfident as he was. In many cases his decisions were more sound than theirs. The most significant is the decision to "Turn South" in late August 1941 rather than resume the advance on Moscow. Halder, Guderian, and other generals presented plans to Hitler to resume the advance on Moscow in August, as opposed to sending Army Group Center to aid Army Group South, which was having diffuculty forcing the Dnieper on it's own. Hitler rejected Halder's proposal, and strenuous objections from AGC's commander merely reinforced his decision. Thus Army Group Center did not resume it's advance towards Moscow, and instead turned towards Kiev, destroying multiple Soviet armies in the process.

Goering, and any other party official making the decisions, didn't have the "hands on" mentality of Hitler, nor did they have the force of will to maintain their decisions in the face of determined arguments from the generals. Thus the turn south will most likely not occur without Hitler.

The results of this will be disastrous. In August 1941 Western, Briansk, and Reserve Fronts were at their full strength and receiving a host of reinforcements. They had halted Army Group Center's eastward advance for much of July and August, and launched several major strategic counteroffensives. An attempt by AGC to resume the advance will be bloody, and much slower than OTL Typhoon.

Further, AGS will have to force the Dnieper, and violently so, and by itself will lack the strength to achieve the same results as the OTL Battle of Kiev. Thus AGC will have over a million Soviet troops sitting on it's overextended right flank, a disaster in the making. Further without the Southwestern front being destroyed STAVKA can concentrate the bulk of it's reinforcements to stymie the German drive on Moscow and Leningrad.

Speaking of Leningrad, AGC's turn south freed up reserves to be shifted north to support the August-September drive on Leningrad, which still failed. Without those reserves Soviet successes will be even greater.

In conclusion, losing Hitler in August is probably the worst possible proposition and will lead to major German defeats later in 1941.

Agreed with all that.

Also let's not forget the fact that the Nazi was a house of cards, full of feuding bureaucracies and cynical backstabbing between the member's of Hitler's inner circle.
 
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Thanks all. :D

I'm working on the next part, but have made a few revisions as it is slightly gory and I don't want to cross into the completely tasteless. It will be out shortly though.
 
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