The House of Tudor
- Thread starter Tynnin
- Start date
Tynnin said:
Things may have been more stable. Henry is often described as a teenager with too much energy and ambition, whereas having been bred to the throne Arthur would probably have been more stable. Also, kind of ironically, if Arthur had trouble getting an heir things won't be that bad, because the Tudor dynasty always has Henry to fall back on, and with Arthur marrying Katherine of Aragon perhaps Henry marries someone more fertile
Grey Wolf
Plus Henry had an education more in line with someone who was to enter into the Church rather than for the heir to the throne which is one of the reasons why Henry was quite willing to dabble around with the Church of England. Arthur would have learned statecraft at his father's knee and would have learned England's need for a strong continental ally together with the need for financial prudence. An alliance with the Hapsburgs might have lasted longer and the English might have been able to keep a hold of its continental possessions for longer during subsequent reigns.
Protestantism would have still taken off in England as the English nobility and people have always paid the Vatican lip service in matters of religion. England always ignored Papal Bulls and there wasn't much the Pope could do about it being on the periphery of Europe. Arthur might have recognised the Pope's gift of the Americas to Spain and Portugal. However, with the English as an ally, Charles V might have sold the English colonial rights so there might have been English colonies anyway.
I can't speculate whether Arthur and Catherine would have been successful in producing children so can't comment on that. Henry might well have married Anne Boleyn or her older sister and could still have been converted to Protestantism as Anne had a very strong influence over him. With more potential Tudors, James V of Scotland and Mary Queen of Scots wouldn't have bothered pushing their claims to the throne of England. There would still be an alliance with France as England are allied with Spain (possibly) but things unlikely to change there.
Protestantism would have still taken off in England as the English nobility and people have always paid the Vatican lip service in matters of religion. England always ignored Papal Bulls and there wasn't much the Pope could do about it being on the periphery of Europe. Arthur might have recognised the Pope's gift of the Americas to Spain and Portugal. However, with the English as an ally, Charles V might have sold the English colonial rights so there might have been English colonies anyway.
I can't speculate whether Arthur and Catherine would have been successful in producing children so can't comment on that. Henry might well have married Anne Boleyn or her older sister and could still have been converted to Protestantism as Anne had a very strong influence over him. With more potential Tudors, James V of Scotland and Mary Queen of Scots wouldn't have bothered pushing their claims to the throne of England. There would still be an alliance with France as England are allied with Spain (possibly) but things unlikely to change there.
Is there any word on how close Arthur and Henry were?
Let’s say things carry on, Arthur as king and Henry romping about and eventually settling down with Anne. If Arthur is merely Catholic by name, and the protestant faith growing in numbers, could there be a scenario where Arthur breaks from the church based on Henry’s council (and the promise of the great wealth waiting to be confiscated)?
Do you think Henry would be appointed the new Archbishop?
Since Henry is married, does this mean that in this new Anglican Church that priests would also be allowed to marry?
Whether England breaks from the church by attrition or formal decree what does this mean for the alliance with the very Catholic nation of Spain? How likely is it that they would follow suite to join or form their own church (England wasn’t yet the power house it was to become, would they view the ties with the Isle more important than the ties of faith?)?
Many questions – any answers?
Let’s say things carry on, Arthur as king and Henry romping about and eventually settling down with Anne. If Arthur is merely Catholic by name, and the protestant faith growing in numbers, could there be a scenario where Arthur breaks from the church based on Henry’s council (and the promise of the great wealth waiting to be confiscated)?
Do you think Henry would be appointed the new Archbishop?
Since Henry is married, does this mean that in this new Anglican Church that priests would also be allowed to marry?
Whether England breaks from the church by attrition or formal decree what does this mean for the alliance with the very Catholic nation of Spain? How likely is it that they would follow suite to join or form their own church (England wasn’t yet the power house it was to become, would they view the ties with the Isle more important than the ties of faith?)?
Many questions – any answers?
Don't forget Catherine of Aragon in this - she is deeply devout in her Catholicism and will be pleading with the King not to break from Rome. Not to mention she is Charles V's favourite aunt and such a move would upset the alliance.
It was Anne Boleyn who abrogated dissolving the monasteries c/o Thomas Cromwell as they were from the same family ablet distantly related. Thomas More and Cardinal Wolsey would still be on the scene having not being executed for displeasing Henry so that might also make a difference.
It was Anne Boleyn who abrogated dissolving the monasteries c/o Thomas Cromwell as they were from the same family ablet distantly related. Thomas More and Cardinal Wolsey would still be on the scene having not being executed for displeasing Henry so that might also make a difference.
First, an admission…
Sadly, there is a gap in my historical knowledge and I have many blank spots when it comes to specifics during the medieval renaissance (my areas tend to be less advanced cultures).
Having said that, on with the thread…
So, you think then that the ties of faith would overrule political alliances. I tend to agree – what a world it would be if that weren’t true.
Ah, the Cromwells, how do you factor in such an ambitious family?
So, Catherine and Arthur remains Catholic and England has a Protestant subculture that never gains a benefactor. Henry lives out his days married to Anne (with many indiscretions) and comes down through history as a religious philosopher. With England remaining Catholic we may see more stable Ireland and friendlier relations with England – though frankly I can’t imagine not having the English to blame for everything ïŠ
Spain doesn’t have the expense and failure of the armada and so is able to maintain a stronger presence on the mainland as well as in its territories across the Atlantic.
Do we see a greater and earlier than OTL influx of Protestants into the New World?
Sadly, there is a gap in my historical knowledge and I have many blank spots when it comes to specifics during the medieval renaissance (my areas tend to be less advanced cultures).
Having said that, on with the thread…
So, you think then that the ties of faith would overrule political alliances. I tend to agree – what a world it would be if that weren’t true.
Ah, the Cromwells, how do you factor in such an ambitious family?
So, Catherine and Arthur remains Catholic and England has a Protestant subculture that never gains a benefactor. Henry lives out his days married to Anne (with many indiscretions) and comes down through history as a religious philosopher. With England remaining Catholic we may see more stable Ireland and friendlier relations with England – though frankly I can’t imagine not having the English to blame for everything ïŠ
Spain doesn’t have the expense and failure of the armada and so is able to maintain a stronger presence on the mainland as well as in its territories across the Atlantic.
Do we see a greater and earlier than OTL influx of Protestants into the New World?
could the irish go the protestant route to culturally seperate themselves from england? maybe not the true protestant route but a more church of england type? mayhap incorporating some old school celtic church things.
cow defender said:
I think the answer is a resounding no
Apart from anything, national churches are usually associated with kingship and in this era the question and form of English rule over Ireland doesn't provide for that, and even if it did it would be the opposite from the desired effect
Grey Wolf
I can’t see the Irish taking kindly to Protestants passively immigrating to their shores.
It took many years of purging, arm twisting, and transplantation of Scots and the like to tip north into the protestant camp.
I’m wondering if the Protestant issue would make for a closer England and Ireland?
It took many years of purging, arm twisting, and transplantation of Scots and the like to tip north into the protestant camp.
I’m wondering if the Protestant issue would make for a closer England and Ireland?
Henry is unlikely to be allowed to marry an English noblewoman. With the exception of Edward IV, most English princes/Kings are usually wed to foriegn princes to cement important alliances. Henry could only marry for love after 20 years of being wedded to Katherine of Aragon.
With Arthur surviving, Henry is likely to be wed to some European princess
With Arthur surviving, Henry is likely to be wed to some European princess
horticultureandmelodrama said:
Ah but who is to say that with Henry's philandering he does not end up with Anne anyways down the road....
Mind you He is not King so he may not be able to divorce this princess he marries....
Elizabeth ends up illegitmate anyways...
Wow! I thought this thread had died. Cool.
With Arthur as king, and with presumably children of his own, and Henry off making merry with anything in a skirt, do you really think he’d make a good option to marry off for an alliance? If I were Arthur I’d be too afraid Henry’s debauchery would cause a war
With Arthur as king, and with presumably children of his own, and Henry off making merry with anything in a skirt, do you really think he’d make a good option to marry off for an alliance? If I were Arthur I’d be too afraid Henry’s debauchery would cause a war
Pope eh...?
You are not even remotely suggesting what I think you are are you.....?
That would be a twist though....
vandevere said:Assuming that Arthur both lives to become King, and produces issue with Catherine of Aragon, then it's most likely that Henry would've beome a priest, say Archbishop of York.
From there, it's only a short step to Cardinal.
Think on that one for a bit...
vandevere
You are not even remotely suggesting what I think you are are you.....?
That would be a twist though....
vandevere said:Assuming that Arthur both lives to become King, and produces issue with Catherine of Aragon, then it's most likely that Henry would've beome a priest, say Archbishop of York.
From there, it's only a short step to Cardinal.
Think on that one for a bit...
vandevere
LOL!
To briefly comment on AuroraBorealis's post, Prince Henry's skirt chasing would have had no impact whatever on any marriage that either Henry VII or King Arthur (!) planned for him. His Duchess of York might rage about it, or turn a blind eye to it; either way, he can diddle away freely without political consequences.
But probably not with Nan Bullen - if she wasn't willing to become the king's mistress, why would she become the Duke of York's?
The more interesting question is yours - if Henry becomes a cardinal, does he go for the brass ring? And if he makes it, what name does he adopt as Pope, and what does he do?
-- Rick
vandevere said:Assuming that Arthur both lives to become King, and produces issue with Catherine of Aragon, then it's most likely that Henry would've beome a priest, say Archbishop of York.
From there, it's only a short step to Cardinal.
Think on that one for a bit...
vandevere
*has a heart attack due to the magnitude of the irony*
vandevere said:Assuming that Arthur both lives to become King, and produces issue with Catherine of Aragon, then it's most likely that Henry would've beome a priest, say Archbishop of York.
From there, it's only a short step to Cardinal.
Think on that one for a bit...
vandevere
If Henry became Pope Cornelius II, I would laugh. But the crown of France would never allow it! (For that matter Austria or Spain)