The House of Komnenos, Like a Phoenix From the Ashes: An Eastern Roman Timeline

For the 1204 map, can I assume that the Frankokratia are the same as OTL?
Yup. Though there might be some divergences from otl due to the nature of the Komnenian restoration rather than the 60+ years long interregnum as in otl.

I'm thinking that modern day Byzantine empire will be made of Greece and turkey since I doubt that even at it's peak the bizantine could take more land that Greece and Anatolia and maybe if they are lucky some of Bulgaria and some of crimea
Well the Nicean restored Empire in otl was not a pushover as it survived almost 200 years after the reconquest of Constantinople. The Empire under Michael VIII Palaiologos was quite a strong regional power and was making a steady recovery. The Palailogian Renaissance was in progress although the Pronoia system was made hereditary. Under Andronikos II who was quite incomptent, the state floundered with the economy stalling and the Roman fleet being disbanded. However under the right leadership, the state was quite a formidable force. Alexios Philanthropenos in the 1290's was basically steamrolling his way across Anatolia. He was so formidable that despite him being blinded later in life due to court intrigue, the invading Turkish army retreated. That was how much weight his reputation carried. @Eparkhos_Ton_Trapezous has an excellent timeline about the Philantropenoi taking over and revitalizing the Roman state called A New Alexiad. I highly recommend checking it out. The Niceans also managed to defeat the Mongol Ilkhanate as well in otl. They also had detailed field manuals about Mongol tactics and practices as well.

The Komnenoi in Trebizond were quite skilled as their state outlived the Eastern Roman Empire by over a decade. They certainly were more skilled than the Palaiologoi though, so they might be more successful than in otl.
 
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@Basileus_Komnenos What year is the given map set?
Probably sometime before the Mongols start coming in so maybe the 1220's/1230's.

Good stuff, cant wait to see what comes next!
I wonder what the Komnenids will do to push back against the turks.
The politics here will likely involve shifting alliances between the Turks and Christians. Heck Alexios might try to ally with them against the Niceans. The Latins might try to do teh same thing too.

I'm very interested in seeing how you are planning to develop this more black sea focused empire.
It's something akin to otl's Trebizondian Empire. Though I feel like Mithridates's Pontic Kingdom is a good analogy.
 
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Here's a 2K-Bam version.
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And here's it blown up by 500x. If you're going to edit it, you should resize it to 20%.
if this is for before the Mongols hit we are sure to have an interesting time when they do, if the Byzantines manage to either fend them off or pay them off they are in an excellen position to expand in the Levant and the remainder of Anatolia from what I can tell.
 
Sorry if it was mentioned earlier, but is the orange in the map the Latin Empire? Why would Trebizond not focus on that?
 
Sorry, I meant the pale orange around Constantinople and Achaea.
Wait, is the map OTL and the purple the Rum Sultanate?
 
Been watching this thread for a while, always nice to see a Byzantine Alt history with the Komnenoi at the helm, always liked the family and their struggles to keep the Empire from falling. Looking forward to further updates.
 
Been watching this thread for a while, always nice to see a Byzantine Alt history with the Komnenoi at the helm, always liked the family and their struggles to keep the Empire from falling. Looking forward to further updates.
Its coming soon. The next one focuses on the Niceans, Laskarids, and the Latin Empire a.k.a Frankokratia. The Komnenoi were always a personal favorite of mine. One of my favorite playthroughs of CKII was when I played as the the Empire of Trebizond in 1204 and worked to restore the Byzantine Empire with the Mongols at its doorstep. I then did a mega-campaign all the way to Victoria II with this Komnenian Empire. The next update though will likely be in a few weeks as I'm focusing on updating my other fics. I plan on updating Let Madness Reign sometime this week with I Viserys following that sometime after, and after those two, I plan on rewriting the last chapter (Chapter IV) of The Lion of Britannia publishing that rewrite with Chapter V.
 
Interesting idea. I know it will take a lot of time but it will be interesting to see Rome in the distant future of the year 2000 ;)

As for how big this Empire could get. I think it could be pretty big if the stars align. Egypt is not yet entirely lost to Christians in this era, absorbing the Crusader states or their remnants is not impossible either which would give the Romans the coast of Syria (but more of the Middle East than that would not be happening) . Anatolia whole or the vast majority of it. Balkans, coast of North Africa. More than that would likely cause a new Latin crusade so Italy and Spain are out of reach. Rome in the modern era would have less land as many nations go independent but might end up holding a lot of Med. coastline, Anatolia, Greece.

Anyway great start so far, definitely Watched.
 
Interesting idea. I know it will take a lot of time but it will be interesting to see Rome in the distant future of the year 2000 ;)
I hope I can take the timeline that far eventually.

As for how big this Empire could get. I think it could be pretty big if the stars align. Egypt is not yet entirely lost to Christians in this era, absorbing the Crusader states or their remnants is not impossible either which would give the Romans the coast of Syria (but more of the Middle East than that would not be happening) .
Historically the Egyptian Copts were a majority if not a large plurality in Egypt for most of the middle ages with Egypt become more Arabized under the Mamaluks who were noticeably harsher toward Christians than the earlier Islamic governments. Though even after Egypt became "Arabized" over the centuries, there's still a very sizeable minority of Egyptians that identify as Copts. Many of the Crusader States found natural allies among the Christian minorities like the Alawites, in terms of recruitment and native support. I feel like a Roman re-conquest of Egypt would likely see the Copts being used as a base of support by the Eastern Romans.

More than that would likely cause a new Latin crusade so Italy and Spain are out of reach. Rome in the modern era would have less land as many nations go independent but might end up holding a lot of Med. coastline, Anatolia, Greece.
The events that led to decolonization in otl are vastly different from the Roman methods conquest and integration. Rome wasn't really a state based on the traditional form of nationalmis based on a common ethnic identity (ie French, German, Polish, Arab, English, etc) but rather more of something along the lines of Civil Nationalism as per the Edict of Caracalla which established universal citizenship across the Empire. The Empire was a multi-ethnic Empire from its inception, and worked to bring in the local inhabitants into the Roman system, though it was often quite brutal to those who resisted it (ie Hadrian and the Jewish Revolt, Theodosios and the massacre of Theodosiopolis, Basil II with Samuel's army, etc) The Thracians for example were a people that the Romans brought under their rule. They were made as a part of the Roman system with its elites given incentives to cooperate with things like Roman citizenship and its perks accorded to them and their families. Thrace was initially a client Kingdom as established by Augustus and was slowly Latinized with the Latin dialect of Thraco-Roman emerging similar to how dialects like the Illyro-Roman, and Gallo-Roman dialects emerged. Thrace became a highly Romanized area with its people speaking Latin and its population identifying as Roman. Leo the Thracian hailed from here while Emperors like Constantine the Great, Justinian, Aurelian, and Diocletian hailed from the province of Illyria. In regions like Gaul for example, the Gallic elites were made partners in the Roman system. Gallic deities were incorporated into the Roman pantheon to encourage cultural syncretism. The continued presence of Roman soldiers in Gaul also caused new towns to emerge where the Latin speaking Roman soldiers and new settlers established their own families and ties. They also likely intermarried with the local Gallic peoples which saw the Galllo-Romance dialect emerge.

The expansion of the Eastern Roman Empire would be radically different from things in otl affecting the balance of power and geopolitics that would change the dynamics of the Age of Exploration.

Anyway great start so far, definitely Watched.
Thanks! The next update will be coming soon with a focus on the Laskarids and possibly the Latin Emperors.
 
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@Basileus_Komnenos What divergences do you have planned for Western Europe ITTL?
Some stuff regarding the Hohenstaufens. They won't go out without a fight. Charles of Anjou will be a major player. Emperor Frederick II von Hohenstaufen will become a thorn in the side of Roman interests. I have stuff planned in regards to the Plantagenet and Capetian wars over France. I'm also considering further Mongol inroads into Western Europe.
 
Some stuff regarding the Hohenstaufens. They won't go out without a fight. Charles of Anjou will be a major player. Emperor Frederick II von Hohenstaufen will become a thorn in the side of Roman interests. I have stuff planned in regards to the Plantagenet and Capetian wars over France. I'm also considering further Mongol inroads into Western Europe.
So maybe a Mongol excursion into the HRE? Pretty sure that's as far as they can go without the logistics breaking down completely.
 
@Basileus_Komnenos Yes that is what I mean, local Christians, Crusaders included too for now, might make for a good native support base in case of a reconquest of those areas.

However not sure if I agree that the Romans will be entirely or even strongly successful in assimilation policies. For example counter them with the Russian Empire who IIRC did not majorly discriminate between subjects to the Tsar (provided they were loyal) and tried to assimilate people. But in the end failed with even the most similar groups like the Ukranians and Belorussians, though they came close. Where they had most success were disparate tribes, mainly from Ugro-Finnic types, so I guess the bigger the group the more they will present a challenge, with similarity to target group also being an issue.

In terms of way of life at this point Christians and Muslims live fairly similar ones, similar tech, passtimes and a highly religious philosophical outlook. Ofc that still leaves two major differences in the form of religion and culture, and a minor one in terms of race that Rome needs to overcome to turn these people from subjects to Romans. All three of those factors help a group stay distinct and refuse to assimilate. They can be overcome but it takes effort and more importantly time. You need to forcefully convert people or offer some kind of incentive like the Jizya tax. Force or incentivize people to speak your language and immerse in your culture. You can't really do much about racial differences without some truly heavy handed policies but they are not big enough to be a roadblock like in the US, just a speedbump.

Ultimately I do not see major groups like the Copts assimilating, they are just too many to be ground down. Provided they were not fiercely pressured to convert or just expelled some Sunnies will stay too, same with Turks. Slavs in the Balkans as well probably. It is not impossible, but it will take a lot of effort on multiple fronts as I outlined, it would be a project that would take centuries. The differences are just too stark to have a "medieval USA" method work where passive assimilation sorts things out. And ultimately the USA was not that good at assimilation, they only really fully unified white protestants all other groups remained distinct to a degree. If you want an Empire that survives the Age of Nationalism more or less intact it simply needs a lot of unity in multiple layers. Or that is my thinking anyway, maybe you disagree.
 
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