The hot summer of 1938; Nazi regime overtrown

If the Poles really wanted to play hard, some diplomates will make them understand that there is a real threat looming in the East (and the Poles alreadyknew them from the early twenties) and they will need all foreign support this time to stop them . So they are not in a posisition to make demands.

What demands? You do realise that Germany had demands (corridor), not other way around? :rolleyes:

Plus I woudn`t be so sure about Allies not giving a damn about Germany trying to militarily contest Versailles treaty.
 
What demands? You do realise that Germany had demands (corridor), not other way around? :rolleyes:

Plus I woudn`t be so sure about Allies not giving a damn about Germany trying to militarily contest Versailles treaty.

In the twenties maybe, but with a 1938 PoD they won't stop Germany from remilitarizing. They tolerated Hitler's actions and he was looney while a new nationalist-conservative regime is not.
 
What demands? You do realise that Germany had demands (corridor), not other way around? :rolleyes:

Plus I woudn`t be so sure about Allies not giving a damn about Germany trying to militarily contest Versailles treaty.

Sorry you do not get were we are.
Germany is just recovering from a coup. A coup which overtrown a absolute dictature, a police state, which disrupted the economy, wrecked the financial stability of Germany in forced move to rearm and at the same time feed the people. A dictature which was focused to go to war, without any care how to finance this.
This new junta have other priorities than correct national borders. Perhaps the new democratic elected goverment after the interim goverment, if there not other more important isues appeared. For instance conquring adventures of Stalinist Russia.
 
Sorry you do not get were we are.
Germany is just recovering from a coup. A coup which overtrown a absolute dictature, a police state, which disrupted the economy, wrecked the financial stability of Germany in forced move to rearm and at the same time feed the people. A dictature which was focused to go to war, without any care how to finance this.
This new junta have other priorities than correct national borders. Perhaps the new democratic elected goverment after the interim goverment, if there not other more important isues appeared. For instance conquring adventures of Stalinist Russia.

I'm sorry, but once Germany gets back on its feet, they will want a border revision with the Poles and probably Sudetenland too. Even Weimar wanted to revise the border with Poland.
 
In the twenties maybe, but with a 1938 PoD they won't stop Germany from remilitarizing. They tolerated Hitler's actions and he was looney while a new nationalist-conservative regime is not.

Yeah, agreed - it might be too late for that, though Allies may react if Germany goes too far, like in OTL.

Sorry you do not get were we are.
Germany is just recovering from a coup. A coup which overtrown a absolute dictature, a police state, which disrupted the economy, wrecked the financial stability of Germany in forced move to rearm and at the same time feed the people. A dictature which was focused to go to war, without any care how to finance this.
This new junta have other priorities than correct national borders. Perhaps the new democratic elected goverment after the interim goverment, if there not other more important isues appeared. For instance conquring adventures of Stalinist Russia.
Sure - this sounds reasonable. I just wanted to correct you on 'Polish demands on Germany', which didn`t exist.;)
 
Originally posted by Parma
No body but really nobody gives a damn about a border dispute between a Polish nationalist dictature and a democratic Germany. If tensions get hot between the two nations, most likely the Poles have to back down. Germany will be backed ( behind the scenes by the Brittish and French).

It isn't a contest between democracy and dictature. It is a border dispute between two states and their political systems have nothing to do with it. Being democratic doesn't mean you are always right in any conflict. A democracy can make imperialistic policy: vide Britain, France, USA.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure about France backing Germany against Poland. The French didn't trust Germany - they didn't build the Maginot line just for fun of it. Also, they wanted to have some influence in Central Europe, and with Poland's out, we have Mitteleuropa dominated by Germany. And then Germany suddenly realizes it is strong enough to deal with France again...

By the way, the new German junta, has really something elso on their mind than, bitching about corridors or ethnic Germans in neighboring nnew states. The junta in Germany need to get the economy running, get their finance back on track, deal with nazi simpathasers who threaten the peace and communist who think they have an opportunity for a grab to power.
Border issues are for later concern, only when the Polish will start, it will become an isue for the German goverments.

Poles did NOT start anything. In 1930s Germany demanded to change the borders, not the Poles. If someone starts shooting, it will be Germany. And as fas as Polish adventurism goes... Even when Poland bullied Lithuania in 1938 IOTL, all it demanded was to reestablish diplomatic relations. No territorial concessions whatsoever. However, when Germany bullied Lithuania in 1939 they demanded Memel. As far as Tesin goes, Poland made its demands only beacuse of Munich - Warsaw kept quiet about it for about 20 years. And yes, taking it was a mistake.

Originally posted by shillinger
No offense, but Poland is bound to be under somebody`s sphere of influence in the 20th century. It simply isnt powerfull enough to be anything else but someone`s pawn.

Well, they weren't anybody's pawn for about 20 years. And had Poland played its cards better, an alliance with Czechoslovakia and Romania might have been quite good solution for all interested countries.

Thats generally because people dont like the Russians or Austria-Hungary. I for one think the eastern Polish borders in the Interbellum are unjust.

The best solution would have been of course independent Belarus and Ukraine, but with USSR it was impossible. And why exactly was Poland's eastern border unjust? To some degree I agree with you, but I'd like to know your reasons.

Occupied by Prussia in the 18.th century.

Prussia after 1871 became core of German Empire. From Polish POV Prussian or German - no difference. And as far as time goes... Finland was Russian since 1809. Somehow nobody blames the Finns for wanting to be independent. Or Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians.
 
Originally posted by Parma


It isn't a contest between democracy and dictature. It is a border dispute between two states and their political systems have nothing to do with it. Being democratic doesn't mean you are always right in any conflict. A democracy can make imperialistic policy: vide Britain, France, USA.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure about France backing Germany against Poland. The French didn't trust Germany - they didn't build the Maginot line just for fun of it. Also, they wanted to have some influence in Central Europe, and with Poland's out, we have Mitteleuropa dominated by Germany. And then Germany suddenly realizes it is strong enough to deal with France again...



Poles did NOT start anything. In 1930s Germany demanded to change the borders, not the Poles. If someone starts shooting, it will be Germany. And as fas as Polish adventurism goes... Even when Poland bullied Lithuania in 1938 IOTL, all it demanded was to reestablish diplomatic relations. No territorial concessions whatsoever. However, when Germany bullied Lithuania in 1939 they demanded Memel. As far as Tesin goes, Poland made its demands only beacuse of Munich - Warsaw kept quiet about it for about 20 years. And yes, taking it was a mistake.

Originally posted by shillinger


Well, they weren't anybody's pawn for about 20 years. And had Poland played its cards better, an alliance with Czechoslovakia and Romania might have been quite good solution for all interested countries.



The best solution would have been of course independent Belarus and Ukraine, but with USSR it was impossible. And why exactly was Poland's eastern border unjust? To some degree I agree with you, but I'd like to know your reasons.



Prussia after 1871 became core of German Empire. From Polish POV Prussian or German - no difference. And as far as time goes... Finland was Russian since 1809. Somehow nobody blames the Finns for wanting to be independent. Or Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians.


Arghhh:eek:
To all, Germany of 1938-1939 is something different than the Germany of 1930 or 1937 There NO priority of the German goverment now, to settle borders.
Can we quit with this German-Polish border dispute.
There is NO Nazi's war threat the thing Europe and USA as well is fearing are a world revolution or Comunist and Comunist russians.
Europe is stil with one legg in an economical depression. Civil unrest is stillevery were, parlty due to the econimc crisess, partly due to fasisht and comunist movements and a comunist dictatue as Stalin, who think he can make some military adventures, under the excuse of exporting the revolution, as it was believed by the rest of the world.
 
To all, Germany of 1938-1939 is something different than the Germany of 1930 or 1937

It's so different it's presenting identical demands. Indeed.

...as Stalin, who think he can make some military adventures, under the excuse of exporting the revolution, as it was believed by the rest of the world.

The very same Stalin that precipitated Poland having its interbellum Eastern Border, pulled out of the Iranian adventures, didn't establish control over East Turkestan (oh-so-easy by the by), didn't, in fact, engage in any military adventures until it became obvious that Hitler wasn't going to be contained and the time to grab everything in between was right now?

He wasn't crazy, you know, just evil. If anything, he was rather conservative about his attempts at rebuilding the Empire. In OTL '39-40, the cordon sanitaire was there to be dismantled at will. In your TL '39-40, there's no such thing.

Stalin is going to stay put.
 
Originally posted by Parma
Can we quit with this German-Polish border dispute.

Gladly. But if you didn't like it, you shouldn't have started it. If Germany doesn't start making problems about the border, there is no Polish-German conflict, since Poland will not start it. Poles were satisfied enough with their western border.
 
Indeed. So was Prussia and Germany through all the 19th century. No, wait. They kept attacking their neighbours.
German opinion was pretty much so: Our slaves not only got free but also dared to take back the land we had honestly stolen from them! Those bastards!
 
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Thieves that rob both their neighbors while they are incapacitated are always satisfied about keeping their ill-gotten gains. :p

Which land are you actually so pissed off at Poland getting? It all contained Poles. The only two real points of contention are Silesia and Danzig.

In Silesia, the compromise line was about the best that could have been drawn on ethnographic grounds: remember, the original plebiscite was all-or-nothing and took no account of local majorities (which served British economic interests), whereas German local majorities in Posen and West Prussia had been handed over to Germany. Sure, no partition can be done according to proper democratic principles in the middle of a low-key war, but both sides were equally to blame for that.

As for Danzig, well, since Germany waged trade war on Poland, the argument that it needed sea access is pretty much vindicated, meaning autonomy rather than Polishness was the fair option; the Poles rather undermined their own argument here by building Gdynia, but then, Beck was willing to contemplate Germany getting back Danzig in some circumstances, and a sane regime probably would have, eventually.

Everywhere else, Germans are a minority. Local majorities in urban centres surrounded by Polish countryside were common, but in the obviously very agrarian society outside Silesia, that meant strong Polish majorities. That Poland's minority rights were abbysmal is a seperate issue from the self-determination of its territories.

Indeed. So was Prussia and Germany through all the 19th century. No, wait. They kept attacking their neighbours.

Bah. This is one of my least historical trends: extending one's grievances form the age of total wars and absolute ideologies into the pragmatic and cynical international politics of the 19th C.

Prussia was not any more aggressive than any other European state in the 19th C. It was just better at knowing when, why, and how to be aggressive. Wars for which Prussia's opponents in every case bears part of the blame (Schleswig, 1866, 1870) are used as proof of "German aggression". We forget that everybody waged aggressive wars at this point, they just didn't win.

And that's keeping it in Europe. Britain and France liked to go around kicking people's nadgers in and shovelling opium down their throat at the time: obviously the reason the Prussians weren't up to that was because they lacked the capability, since Germany joined the colonial game with murderous enthusiasm later on, but it bears pointing out in discussions of who was "aggressive" in the 19th.

I don't really agree with the way the very opinionated partitions of Poland are usually presented either, to be honest. It was a cynical act of 18th realpolitik. Other changes of hands (to give a nicely illustrative example, France and Alsace-Lorraine) were just as cynical, aggressive, and undemocratic in almost every respect, but they've been allowed to stand.

Prussia stole land from Poland. Then, Poland had conquered east Slav land earlier. Everybody was constantly stealing and conquering for most of history, so if we bring up 18th century grievances we'd be here all day. Soctland's independence was terminated against our wishes by a political clique and a hearty dose of economic blackmail in the same period, I should point out. Am I complaining?

The important thing is how the people of a territory self-determined at the time in which self-determination became possible. Which was in this case obviously 1918, and for Poland.

German opinion was pretty much so: Our slaves not only got free but also dared to take back the land we had honestly stolen from them! Those bastards!

This I'm not going to argue with. Nobody should delude himself that the 19th C was not outrageously prejudiced; in all quarters. Check British (and American!) remarks about Irishmen, for instance.

Sorry, but I'm sniffing the myth of Evil Agressive Germans Forever.
 
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Originally posted by Parma


Gladly. But if you didn't like it, you shouldn't have started it. If Germany doesn't start making problems about the border, there is no Polish-German conflict, since Poland will not start it. Poles were satisfied enough with their western border.

:) It is not that I don't like it, but to me it seems a detail, I belive it is an important isue between two nations, but nothing else.
The German-Polish border disputes can be solved with diplomacy, not with war. War is not for the interest of both parties.

At the same time other things on the world stage will happen.
I like to know other people thoughts of this.

When the Nazi's were removed from power, the whole future is different. As mentioned before, what would Musolini do?
What would Stalin do, will he attack Finland, or not, since the attack was (as mentioned before) by the Polish campaign. Will he remain a cautios dictature who will not take any riscs in a military advanture, or would he get some megalomania later in the 40ties and an urgent need of conquest.

But Stalins Rusia does not need to be a threat by military power, in those days russia provided support for the still very popular communist parties all around Europe. Comunist parties who still were convinced of a world revolution and a dictature of the prolitariat, ore something like this.

Would Great Brittan and France continue with their re-armament and modernisation programs, now Germany is on an other track. The same question for the smaller countries as Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries etc.
How would nations as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria develop. Is democracy winning , in this 40ties or are some countries remain totalitair?

Some thought about this?
 
Originally posted by Parma
When the Nazi's were removed from power, the whole future is different. As mentioned before, what would Musolini do?
What would Stalin do, will he attack Finland, or not, since the attack was (as mentioned before) by the Polish campaign. Will he remain a cautios dictature who will not take any riscs in a military advanture, or would he get some megalomania later in the 40ties and an urgent need of conquest.
But Stalins Rusia does not need to be a threat by military power, in those days russia provided support for the still very popular communist parties all around Europe. Comunist parties who still were convinced of a world revolution and a dictature of the prolitariat, ore something like this.
Would Great Brittan and France continue with their re-armament and modernisation programs, now Germany is on an other track. The same question for the smaller countries as Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandinavian countries etc.
How would nations as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria develop. Is democracy winning , in this 40ties or are some countries remain totalitair?
Some thought about this?

Fine. We exchanged pleasantries, now to business.
Germany has serious economical problem. Re-armament costed a lot, and this time there is no Czechoslovakian gold to pay German bills. They must switch their economy back to more peaceful use. National pride is saved, now German people wants better live they deserve.
In Poland internal tensions rise. Without so obvious threat from the west political opposition does not give up its fight against Sanacja. Marshall Śmigły-Rydz keeps looking for support from the nationalists. President Mościcki tends to look for some way to make a deal with opposition. Polish economy is getting stronger, OTOH, so it may cool some heads. Poland continues modernization of the Polish Army, since the threat from the east is sitll there, and even democratic Germany is not friendly towards Poland.
I think Stalin will not move against Finland. With Hitler out there is a serious risk of Europe uniting against USSR, and Stalin was affraid of it. IOTL in 1939 western allies were busy with Germany - ITTL Stalin might have to deal with Poland, Germany, Romania, France and Britain (Poland wouldn't let German troops in, but Baltic states might).
 
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