The Holocaust and Zionism in a no-Fall-of-France scenario?

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, one more question--let's say that the French aren't wimps and thus indeed advance into Germany and end the war in 1939-1940; what happens to the Zionist movement afterwards? After all, in such a TL, there would be no Holocaust yet but nevertheless a lot of taste of Nazi anti-Semitism!
 
Question--why exactly did Nazi Germany have air superiority in France in 1940?

The Armee de l'Air had poor organization, poor co-ordination, poor tactics, poor serviceability, mostly obsolete aircraft, and a critical lack of trained pilots. As a result, morale was so shot that when the Germans attacked they didn't even try to contest the skies. Had they done so, they probably would have been butchered.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The Armee de l'Air had poor organization, poor co-ordination, poor tactics, poor serviceability, mostly obsolete aircraft, and a critical lack of trained pilots. As a result, morale was so shot that when the Germans attacked they didn't even try to contest the skies. Had they done so, they probably would have been butchered.
By "they," you mean the French, correct?

Also, were both the Brits and the Americans much more effective in regards to this?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Question--why exactly did Nazi Germany have air superiority in France in 1940?
because the French didn't start to rebuild their air force in time. This was due to a combination of factors, starting with difficulties with home grown designs (the M.S. 405 prototype flew in August of 1935, at the time it was a competitive design, but it didn't enter service until mid 1938 as the M.S. 406 by which time it was too slow and too weakly armed while the MB.15x series was similarly delayed) issues with getting the Curtiss Hawk 75 (the USAAF was very unhappy to lose the P-36 air frames, it took FDR's direct intervention to release the aircraft to the export market), and the decision to spend the money necessary.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
because the French didn't start to rebuild their air force in time. This was due to a combination of factors, starting with difficulties with home grown designs (the M.S. 405 prototype flew in August of 1935, at the time it was a competitive design, but it didn't enter service until mid 1938 as the M.S. 406 by which time it was too slow and too weakly armed while the MB.15x series was similarly delayed) issues with getting the Curtiss Hawk 75 (the USAAF was very unhappy to lose the P-36 air frames, it took FDR's direct intervention to release the aircraft to the export market), and the decision to spend the money necessary.
OK; understood.

Also, France's air inferiority really was fatal for it in 1940, wasn't it?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
OK; indeed, I simply wanted to make sure about this. Frankly, I certainly find it interesting how much things changed for Nazi Germany in regards to air superiority between 1940 and 1942-1943.
The Luftwaffe was designed to be primarily a ground attack force, the Ju-88, He-111, and Do-17 were all equipped to be dive bombers, with a secondary level bomber role. Famously the Me-262 was delayed because Hitler insisted that it be able to conduct ground attacks. In this application the Reich was well ahead of the curve, something that can be seen in the later Western designs ranging from the F6F to the Typhoon to the P-47. The problem was the Luftwaffe never expanded beyond the "ground support" role. While the Americans and British invested massively in the development of strategic bombing the Reich effectively ignored the type (American heavy production was north of 35,000, British close to 10K, with the Reich totaling under 1,200), as the war evolved this decision severely impacted the Reich's ability to wage war.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The Luftwaffe was designed to be primarily a ground attack force, the Ju-88, He-111, and Do-17 were all equipped to be dive bombers, with a secondary level bomber role. Famously the Me-262 was delayed because Hitler insisted that it be able to conduct ground attacks. In this application the Reich was well ahead of the curve, something that can be seen in the later Western designs ranging from the F6F to the Typhoon to the P-47. The problem was the Luftwaffe never expanded beyond the "ground support" role. While the Americans and British invested massively in the development of strategic bombing the Reich effectively ignored the type (American heavy production was north of 35,000, British close to 10K, with the Reich totaling under 1,200), as the war evolved this decision severely impacted the Reich's ability to wage war.
OK; understood. Also, thanks for sharing all of this detailed information, CalBear! :D
 
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