The Heirs to History: Discussion Thread

Okay there's a few important aspects to look at here, this religeous split hasn't made the Emperor weaker, it has de facto made him stronger, a weak Pope means that the Emperors control over the rich and powerful ecclessial estates/states in Germany are extented. The ecclessial rulers was often from the Imperial Knightly families whom even in OTL with lots of them being Protestants was strong base for the Emperors support. Here where they belong to the Imperial Church, and the Emperor has more control over the ecclessial estates, he's more free to reward them with positions and copntrol of those estates, and they make a even stronger base for him.

The clichee about the defragmented HRE are as I said a clichee, the Germany was by the standards of the late medieval periode a unified state, yes the princes/nobles had lor of power but so did they in lot of others European states of the time. What killed the HRE in reality was the 30 Years War, which de facto removed the vassal bond between the Emperor and the greater princes.

The next important aspect to understand are population size in 1500 Europe had between 48 and 70 million inhabitants, the entire Arabic (not Muslim) world plus the Ottomans possesion had less than 15 millions*. France had a greater population than that (16,4 million). In OTL the Ottomans failed to move beyond Hungary, while the Emperor had to fight both the French, the Pope and the Protestants in Germany. I don't see why they would have greater succes here, where the Emperor can use the weak position of Ecclessial power to extent his control and influence over Germany (and Italy).

I know that many people think that the Ottomans could conquer the entire world, and it only because they didn't want to they didn't, but in truth the problem was that the Ottomans was at the absolut border of what they could conquer, if everything goes well I could see them extent their power to Italy, but that's it. France or/and Germany, there's no way in Hell they're going to succed at that.

The last aspect you forget are how Iberia are going to develop without a unified Church. In all likelyhood without a unified Church to push them to a increased intolerance, we may very well see them letting the Muslim and Jewish minority stay (through the Muslims will likely slowly be assimilated). Of course we're quite unlikely to see Columbus in this world, which will lead to a quite different colonisation of the new world. So we have a Spain which haveen't driven the mechant minorities out and doesn't have the great infusion silver, the result are likely that they develop a more fuctioning economy, people tend to forget that 16th century Spain wasn't a backwater, but one of Europes most modern states at the technological forefront, their colonies destroyed that by giving little incentiment to keep up before it was to late.

*of those around a 1/3 was Christians
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Seconded. The Ottomans couldn't take Vienna in OTL, largely due to supply/logistics issues, so I just don't see them going much further no matter what the political situation in Europe is. Similarly, I don't see the Arabs regaining any of Iberia in the 15th century, unless the Ottomans help them out.

I hate to say this, DJC, but the only way you will simply delete European civilization after 1300 is to have a comet smash right into it. Your Papal Wars will result in a quite different Europe from OTL (most likely one with nationally controlled churches, and maybe an Ottoman Empire that gets slightly more territory), but European civilization will almost certainly recover and dominate the world like OTL.

The best you can do without involving ASB's is to have one or more POD's in the 11th-13th century that prevent the fall of al-Andalus to the Christians, and have some POD's in Chinese court politics that produce a Chinese government more favorable to exploration, and which eventually explores the Pacific coast. That way, American colonization will be a competition between three different civilizations-European, Islamic (specifically, al-Andalus and maybe a North African country or two) and the Chinese.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
'

Seconded. The Ottomans couldn't take Vienna in OTL, largely due to supply/logistics issues, so I just don't see them going much further no matter what the political situation in Europe is. Similarly, I don't see the Arabs regaining any of Iberia in the 15th century, unless the Ottomans help them out.

I hate to say this, DJC, but the only way you will simply delete European civilization after 1300 is to have a comet smash right into it. Your Papal Wars will result in a quite different Europe from OTL (most likely one with nationally controlled churches, and maybe an Ottoman Empire that gets slightly more territory), but European civilization will almost certainly recover and dominate the world like OTL.

The best you can do without involving ASB's is to have one or more POD's in the 11th-13th century that prevent the fall of al-Andalus to the Christians, and have some POD's in Chinese court politics that produce a Chinese government more favorable to exploration, and which eventually explores the Pacific coast. That way, American colonization will be a competition between three different civilizations-European, Islamic (specifically, al-Andalus and maybe a North African country or two) and the Chinese.

Mirza Khan are complete correct.

But if you goal are to kill European colonism this POD could show some promiss, it won't bring Europe down but you could make them stay in Europe.

First the country which started European exploration was Portugal, there's several reasons to that, foremost because had it back to sea with stronger powers keeping it from expand east, there was really no other way to go.

This POD are early enough to make Castile take over Portugal, after which they likely take over Grenada (sorry you got to take one for the team) after which they will likely try to expanding into North Africa. While a few city will like end up in Castilian hand mostly it's going to be a failure. They will be unable to conquer Morocco, and we see continued war between the two sides. This will kept Castile busy. Whom will replace Portugal and Spain in the exploration. My guess are no one, we won't see the development of the caravel which spread from Iberia, France and HRE has to many enemies on land, England* too plus they really lacked the population to do so in 16th century and Denmark and Sweden well they have enough to do with each others.

English and Basque fishermen may have fished off the coast of New Foundland, but honestly that means little, for European monarchs that would just be another barren wasteland at the ensd of the world like Greenland.
 
Mirza Khan are complete correct.

But if you goal are to kill European colonism this POD could show some promiss, it won't bring Europe down but you could make them stay in Europe.

First the country which started European exploration was Portugal, there's several reasons to that, foremost because had it back to sea with stronger powers keeping it from expand east, there was really no other way to go.

This POD are early enough to make Castile take over Portugal, after which they likely take over Grenada (sorry you got to take one for the team) after which they will likely try to expanding into North Africa. While a few city will like end up in Castilian hand mostly it's going to be a failure. They will be unable to conquer Morocco, and we see continued war between the two sides. This will kept Castile busy. Whom will replace Portugal and Spain in the exploration. My guess are no one, we won't see the development of the caravel which spread from Iberia, France and HRE has to many enemies on land, England* too plus they really lacked the population to do so in 16th century and Denmark and Sweden well they have enough to do with each others.

English and Basque fishermen may have fished off the coast of New Foundland, but honestly that means little, for European monarchs that would just be another barren wasteland at the ensd of the world like Greenland.


I disagree with you to some extent. First of all, I think trading ships in the North Sea and from England's Western ports will develop whether caravels do or not.

Secondly, England has a distinctly larger population than Portugal. If Portugal is a credible colonising and exploring nation at this time, so is England.
Your scenario - that France can't, and Spain/Portugal won't - makes English colonisation almost more likely, as the powers most likely to threaten her at home or rival her overseas are otherwise occupied.

Also remember that voyages of exploration westward from Bristol began before Columbus, and it was only 5 years after Columbus' first voyage that Cabot reached America.

Oh, and of course as regards the Grand Banks off Newfoundland - some 'wasteland', the most plentiful fishing in the entire world, enough to draw men three thousand miles from home for weeks at a time.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I disagree with you to some extent. First of all, I think trading ships in the North Sea and from England's Western ports will develop whether caravels do or not.

While something will be develop I doubt it will be something like OTL, the development away from Cogs was heavily inspired by Caravels.

Secondly, England has a distinctly larger population than Portugal. If Portugal is a credible colonising and exploring nation at this time, so is England.
Your scenario - that France can't, and Spain/Portugal won't - makes English colonisation almost more likely, as the powers most likely to threaten her at home or rival her overseas are otherwise occupied.

England had around 2,5 million people in 1500*, Portugal had around 1, if you look at the size difference even with Englands worse climate the English had plenty of room to spread on.

Your problem are that you project Englands later position backward, yes England became the major exploration and colonisation power, but in 1500 England was surprisingly backward power with a strong focus on the European mainland.

Also remember that voyages of exploration westward from Bristol began before Columbus, and it was only 5 years after Columbus' first voyage that Cabot reached America.

Yes and clearly it had nothing to do with Columbus had just found "India", and had come home with stories of gold and riches.
Oh, and of course as regards the Grand Banks off Newfoundland - some 'wasteland', the most plentiful fishing in the entire world, enough to draw men three thousand miles from home for weeks at a time.

Yes it drawed people from three thousand miles from home for weeks at a time to it, but they didn't stay for more than a few weeks, because while the sea was rich, the land was poor, and of lower quality than they could find at home.

*Aproximation by Richard Bonney in "The European Dynastic States" page 365; Oxford University Press.
 
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