The Heirs of Lothar Turn East: A Surviving Medieval Burgundy Brainstorming Thread

Well today wasn't super productive timeline wise but of well. :eek:

I do have a long term goal though... A Germany united by lorraine and governed by brussels.

Thinking about it go the downsides is that it seems really easy for France to take them down. :eek:
 
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Before the age of conscription armies and other developments, the gap was smaller than you might think. To be clear France still was in better position, but it wasn't a coincidence that Burgundy and later the Dutch Republic were able to punch above their weight, that was because of their wealth.

Around 1500 IOTL the Burgundian Netherlands were able to match the average state expenses of England. The lowest and the highest figures of England and France were twice as large in France's favour.

In other words when on France's bad side, they would need a few allies (England or Castille-Aragon) and, if possible support of the Empire.
Another factor would be how much of their resources France could commit for an offensive in the north and north-east.
I don't fear all out annexation by France, but I can see territorial losses occur :)(;)). Though some could be masked as a dowry (Franche Comté?) as part of a peace settlement.
 
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Before the age of conscription armies and other developments, the gap was smaller than you might think. To be clear France still was in better position, but it wasn't a coincidence that Burgundy and later the Dutch Republic were able to punch above their weight, that was because of their wealth.

I agree : furthermore, France strength wasn't much in having bigger armies, than its capacity to recover more easily from its losses and raising new troops.

Though some could be masked as a dowry (Franche Comté?) as part of a peace settlement.
Dowry are kind of tricky, and are always subject to be the centers of new crisis (as in "You didn't respected the conditions of the alliances, so I'm taking that back"). In the case of a diplomatic agreement, that could work. But for a peace settlement, it would be outright annexation.
 
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Dowry are kind of tricky, and are always subject to be the centers of new crisis (as in "You didn't respected the conditions of the alliances, so I'm taking that back"). In the case of a diplomatic agreement, that could work. But for a peace settlement, it would be outright annexation.

One could follow from the other though to restore relations.

Alternatively it could consist of disputed territory added to recognized territorial losses.
An example of this would be the treaty of Arras (1482), where archduke Maximilian, as the regent for his son Philip, made peace with king Louis XI. It recognized France gaining (the territory) of most of the French fiefs, except Flanders and disputed Artois was part of the dowry.
Also archduke Philip's sister archduchess Margaret was to marry the Dauphin, future king Charles VIII.
Margaret's dowry consisted of the Free County of Burgundy, and the following counties, Artois, Charolais, Macon and Auxerre (and a few smaller territories).

IOTL when Charles VIII later repudiated the marriage with Margaret, that seemed to have left a lasting antipathy for France with her (she apparently used to be fond of Charles). This is the same Margaret, who played a large in the upbringing of her (deceased) brother's children, among them Charles V, Eleanor of Austria and Mary of Hungary.

Anyway after that marriage was repudiated, it in turn made a follow up treaty necessary. The OTL treaty of Senlis of 1493, which given Charles VIII ambitions in Italy and the Habsburgs being in a better position than in 1482, led to the OTL outcome. There France was able to retain the counties Macon and Auxerre, but the county of Auxonne, both a part of the empire and a vassal of the duchy of Burgundy was also transferred to France.

Also the 1482 treaty was conducted after the Habsburgs also managed some victories against France (battle of Guingate).
 
I skipped a few pages, so you may have discussed it, but have you got any ideas on the league of the public weal? (La ligue du Bien public)

This seems an excellent time for Burgundy to preserved more or less whole; if the league scores serious rather than temporary success against the French crown, France becomes significantly weaker - and that means Burgundy can stay safe for a while longer. With massive luck (say, Louis dies in a new battle caused by the League), it might even lead to French power shattering as it did during the hundred years war, and by the time anyone's picked up the pieces Burgundy will be the richest state in Europe controlling Lorraine, maybe the Champagne, and most of the Netherlands.
 
I skipped a few pages, so you may have discussed it, but have you got any ideas on the league of the public weal? (La ligue du Bien public)

This seems an excellent time for Burgundy to preserved more or less whole; if the league scores serious rather than temporary success against the French crown, France becomes significantly weaker - and that means Burgundy can stay safe for a while longer. With massive luck (say, Louis dies in a new battle caused by the League), it might even lead to French power shattering as it did during the hundred years war, and by the time anyone's picked up the pieces Burgundy will be the richest state in Europe controlling Lorraine, maybe the Champagne, and most of the Netherlands.

Hmm while interesting it kind of derails the idea of an inheritance :D

I'll think about it though.
 
Hmm while interesting it kind of derails the idea of an inheritance :D

I'll think about it though.

Not necessarily, it may lead to Burgundy keeping a larger slice of the pie. They may be able to keep more of the disputed areas, which could be inherited by the female line. The 'Burgundian vassal states' within France would be lost though.

The duchy of Burgundy actually is interesting too, when it was given to duke Robert the Old (founder of the Capetian house of Burgundy), younger brother of king Henry, in part to settle a succession, he and his descendants gained the right to pass it to all natural heirs (so women could inherit or pass inheritance in the absence of men).
When the last duke of Burgundy of the Capetian house of Burgundy (Philip of Rouvres) died , there were two claimants, king John the Good of France (by proximity of the blood) and king Charles II the Bad of Navarra (by primogeniture). France didn't like the thought of Burgundy passing to Navarra and moved quickly, but the Estates of Burgundy insisted that Burgundy was kept as a separate entity apart from the Lands of the French Crown (John may have originally intended that). Finally he gave the inheritance of the duchy to his youngest son and arguably favourite son Philip the Bold (his courageous behaviour also saved his father at the the battle of Poitiers). Philip in return had to renounce his previous appanage duchy of Touraine, this inheritance was later confirmed by (John's son and Philip's brother) Charles V of France.
France claimed Burgundy had become an appanage, whereas later Valois dukes of Burgundy and their Habsburg heirs disputed this. The outcome of the 1435 congress of Arras, which acquitted Burgundy from fealty and homage to the French king may have strengthened that view.

Still even with a weaker France and stronger Burgundy, I consider previously 'Burgudian vassal states and territories under Burgundian influence within France'* lost, and Burgundy would be fighting to keep as much as possible from their own dynastic lands within France. Those territories (I might forget a few lordships) directly held by their house were the duchy of Burgundy, the county of Flanders the county of Charolais and the county of Artois. I would rank those in the following manner: the duchy of Burgundy most likely becomes French (though they could retain the title); Flanders is the most likely candidate to stay Burgundian, followed by Charolais; and Artios would be somewhere in the middle. Burgundy might be able under these conditions to exchange Charolais for Artois (maybe without the enclave).

Without these (necessary for this scenario) changes (a weaker France and stronger Burgundy) I'll strongly advise to follow the established consensus in this thread. :)

(*= counties of Macon, Auxerre, Boulogne and Ponthieu, the county of Vermandois, Picardy (Somme towns) and the county of St. Pol (Burgundian sphere of influence))
 
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Hmm while interesting it kind of derails the idea of an inheritance :D

I'll think about it though.

Well, my thinking, which is roughly in line with Janprimus, is that Burgundy lost a ton of land and influence during Mary's inheritance. Most of it was lost to action by the French crown (or, at least, with the crown's support). If the League manages to shatter royal power, or at least curb it severely, many Burgundian 'vassals' might be spun off due to their disputing female inheritance (or just wanting more power) - but there will be no royal power to support them, and so the 'core' Burgundian realm (Flanders-Brabant) can more easily reassert its claims.

Of course, it does shatter more than the Burgundian inheritance - such a weakening in French power means, almost surely, more Spain/Trastamara power in Italy. Provence might continue to act independently, Brittany surely will, and the rest of the French vassals will be pulling their own strings. But the main point, from my perspective, is that it allows Burgundy to safely sort itself out during the succession, rather than be forced to fight for its existence and borders.
 
I had an idea for a future electorate for Lorraine. It involves all electorates being more successful at implementing primogeniture.
It would be rather symbolic, if the duke of Lorraine would somehow manage to become Elector Palatine, the count palatine by Rhine; since the county palatine by Rhine had developed from the county palatine of Lotharingia.

So WI ITTL a duke of Lorraine manages to marry the heiress of the last Elector Palatine, who was the last of the male line of the Palatinate branch of the house of Wittelsbach?

It would surely lead to a conflict with the Bavarian branch of the house of Wittelsbach, a TTL war of the Palatinate succession.
Bavaria would be in a good position to gain the Upper Palatinate and other Bavarian possessions of Electoral Palatine. Lorraine would end up with the possessions in the Rhineland.

One gains the old Electorate of the Palatinate, probably Bavaria, but the other maybe, Lorraine is eventually compensated with a new electorate. The other way around might work too, Lorraine could be overall victorious, but Bavaria, probably with a strong ally (other electors), might end up in a position, where a new electorate is created.

(An alternative could be a Prince-Elector, who inherits Lorraine).
 
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