The Heirs of Lothar Turn East: A Surviving Medieval Burgundy Brainstorming Thread

[Van555]

Ok here's My idea: What if the Burgundian Valois managed to survive by not pissing everyone off?

This would mean that they would have to settle for a divided territory and play by the HRE's rules at least at first maybe they can avoid going all gavelkind like the Wettins though.

They would Also have to give up their ambitions to rule France perhaps even losing some of the inner burgundian lands in the process.

Ideally I'm thinking they would be able to control what in our timeline became the Burgundian circle at a basic level as their short term goal while being friendly with the Von Hapsburgs at least in the short term.

In the long term they would try to connect their territory at a generational pace.

What I'm hoping for personally is for them to survive and thrive to the point where they are able to become an actual nation state that unites the lowlands and the rhineland.

If that ends up being to absurd an earlier united benelux would be a fine consolation prize.

 

[Van555]

I just want to see if anyone has any thoughts before I get serious.

 

[Van555]

A big question what would be the most prestigious title of a duke controlling the equivalent of the burgundian circle?

 

[Van555]

More Importantly should my point of departure be before the Burgundian war happens or during it because it seems that Winning a war against the swiss would be a challenge.

 

[LSCatilina]

This would mean that they would have to settle for a divided territory and play by the HRE's rules at least at first maybe they can avoid going all gavelkind like the Wettins though.

They could avoid "dynastic" traps, but their rule on a divided territory is going to have some backlash as well. I'm thinking about Alsace and Flanders especially, that had several entities largely autonomous.

They would Also have to give up their ambitions to rule France perhaps even losing some of the inner burgundian lands in the process.

They basically left any ambition to rule or have a decisive influence on France by 1435, with the treaty of Arras, their policy with other french feudal rulers being largely about a greater independence for their own demesne.
And for playing full HRE, they would probably have to abandon several territories, probably something along the lines of OTL partage between Valois and Habsourgs. At this point it would be less Burgundy and more Lorraine (without having Lorraine in their pockets).

In the long term they would try to connect their territory at a generational pace.

It's a bit contradictory with "being friends with Habsburgs". If they try to pull a Hohenzollern, their better chance is to ally with the anti-imperial block (Swiss, Bavaria, etc.) and weaken their authority.

Of course, such PoD could likely butterfly away Habsburg maintaining themselves to imperial title (having no ressources from Spain and Great discoveries, neither Flanders) and end with another dynasty or even ending with french kings trying to make themselves crowned. (It would be kind of a twisted Pick-a-boo for Burgundian, granted).
And it's also a distinct possibility that Burgundy would end as an imperial dynasty.

What I'm hoping for personally is for them to survive and thrive to the point where they are able to become an actual nation state that unites the lowlands and the rhineland.

That's going to be hard. Admitting that Reformation doesn't strikes as OTL, and that western Germany is spared, something hard of its own, Burgundy would began with a divided territory not only geographically but administrativly.
Their best chance is to inherit Lorraine.

In a possibly weakened HRE, they could try indeed to gain more, but it would be as its OTL equivalent more a dynastic union than actually national. At best, it would be considered as a whole part of German nation.

In order to form a distinct nationality, you'll need a radical change à la Hohenzollern. But while Prussians-Brandenburgian could count on a relative isolation and weakened neighbours and an alliance with close protestant countries, Burgundy would be more stuck between inner divisions, France, Habsburgs, for the external threats, and identitary, linguistic and administrative divisions for the inner issues.

Skilled rulers could help with that, but you'll clearly have crisis.

A big question what would be the most pretigous title of a duke controlling the equivalent of the burgundian circle.?

Duke of Lorraine, probably. The problem is that the title is already used by someone else. Making them Elector or even Grand Elector of Burgundy could be nice.

More Importantly should my point of departure be before the Burgundian war happens or during it because it seems that Winning a war against the swiss would be a challenge.

Any PoD between 1435 and 1467 would be good. Admittedly a PoD giving Charles at least half a brain would help a lot.
In fact, and it may be counter-intuitive, you need to screw Burgundy importantly enough for they give up much of their estates and holdings under french suzerainty.

 

[Van555]

They could avoid "dynastic" traps, but their rule on a divided territory is going to have some backlash as well. I'm thinking about Alsace and Flanders especially, that had several entities largely autonomous.

Yeah, I can see that it would be difficult to balance all of their interests but their is the challenge I suppose.


They basically left any ambition to rule or have a decisive influence on France by 1435, with the treaty of Arras, their policy with other french feudal rulers being largely about a greater independence for their own demesne.
And for playing full HRE, they would probably have to abandon several territories, probably something along the lines of OTL partage between Valois and Habsourgs. At this point it would be less Burgundy and more Lorraine (without having Lorraine in their pockets).

Were on the same page here,(it also makes mapping easier)Decamping themselves from the duchy burgundy itself would be a necessity.

It's a bit contradictory with "being friends with Habsburgs". If they try to pull a Hohenzollern, their better chance is to ally with the anti-imperial block (Swiss, Bavaria, etc.) and weaken their authority.

Oh they probably would when it suits them as they want to connect their lands and holdings, who knows they may be up for emperorship!

Of course, such PoD could likely butterfly away Habsburg maintaining themselves to imperial title (having no ressources from Spain and Great discoveries, neither Flanders) and end with another dynasty or even ending with french kings trying to make themselves crowned. (It would be kind of a twisted Pick-a-boo for Burgundian, granted).
And it's also a distinct possibility that Burgundy would end as an imperial dynasty.

Indeed, the Empires structure should be completely rearranged, making it a fairer fight between the Lotharingians, the bavarians,the Austrians and the saxons perhaps!

That's going to be hard. Admitting that Reformation doesn't strikes as OTL, and that western Germany is spared, something hard of its own, Burgundy would began with a divided territory not only geographically but administrativly.
Their best chance is to inherit Lorraine.

They'll definitely being eyeing that and the reformation should be happening as well, but who shall they side with?

In a possibly weakened HRE, they could try indeed to gain more, but it would be as its OTL equivalent more a dynastic union than actually national. At best, it would be considered as a whole part of German nation.

This is true and in fact may make them inclined to create a more dutch like german entity? Maybe a united HRE in time

In order to form a distinct nationality, you'll need a radical change à la Hohenzollern. But while Prussians-Brandenburgian could count on a relative isolation and weakened neighbours and an alliance with close protestant countries, Burgundy would be more stuck between inner divisions, France, Habsburgs, for the external threats, and identitary, linguistic and administrative divisions for the inner issues.

I have to agree, they would face quite a challenge but if they can survive they can thrive I feel.

Skilled rulers could help with that, but you'll clearly have crisis.

Indeed and they can't play the game perfectly forever...


Duke of Lorraine, probably. The problem is that the title is already used by someone else. Making them Elector or even Grand Elector of Burgundy could be nice.

I think so too,an Prince elector and eventually king elector of Lothigren would be nice to see.

Any PoD between 1435 and 1467 would be good. Admittedly a PoD giving Charles at least half a brain would help a lot.
In fact, and it may be counter-intuitive, you need to screw Burgundy importantly enough for they give up much of their estates and holdings under french suzerainty.

I intend to make Charles the Bold be Charles the cautious or derisively the timid..

Let me fix my post here!, Answers in bold!

 

[Van555]

If I can get nicholas of Lorraine involved it might help...

 

[LSCatilina]

Oh they probably would when it suits them and they want to connect their lands and holdings, who knows they may be up for emperorship!

Yes, it's a distinct possibility. If they managed to hold on Flanders, they would have access to a quite important ressources thanks to maritime revenues.
They wouldn't have OTL Habsburg Flanders+America+Spain+Bohemia ressources, of course (regarding regular and important revenues), so they would be still quite challenged on that.

They'll definitely being eyeing that and the reformation should be happening as well, but who shall they side with?

I'm afraid it would be both.
By that I mean there's a good chance they would support Catholics, especially if they gain the imperial title, but a good part of their demesnes (Flanders, maybe Alsace) is going to possibly switch to Reformation.

A EYW (Eighty Years Wars) equivalent isn't to be excluded, in addition of Reformation conflicts shitstorm that is likely going to happen in the whole HRE.

This is true and in fact may make them inclined to create a more dutch like german entity? Maybe a united HRE?

If a dutch identity is made, it would be against them. At best, they would form some sort of Rheinish culture not unlike OTL one, but it wouldn't exactly an identity being supported by few cultural (especially linguistic) common points.

For an united HRE...I don't really see that happening at middle term. An unified HRE, maybe but after Reformation wars, with more limited ressources and a less favourable geopolitical situation, I confess I'm doubtful about much success on this up to the formation of a German state from Burgundian lands.

I intend to make Charles the Bold be Charles the cautious or derisively the timid..

In fact, screw Charles. Make Antoine of Burgundy survives his prime infancy. It would allow you to mold from scratch as he dided at two years old. Of course, he wouldn't be radically different from his brother but it gives enough room to have a different outcome.

 

[DanMcCollum]

I always thought it would be interesting to see Burgundy turn into a bit of a western *Austria; a multicultural, dynastic realm with Dijon prospering as a cross-roads of different cultures. Honestly, considering the power of the Duke of Burgundy, I could see his descendants actually vying against the Hapburgs for the imperial title at some point. Which, of course, changes the development of the HRE.

 

[Van555]

Yes, it's a distinct possibility. If they managed to hold on Flanders, they would have access to a quite important ressources thanks to maritime revenues.
They wouldn't have OTL Habsburg Flanders+America+Spain+Bohemia ressources, of course (regarding regular and important revenues), so they would be still quite challenged on that.

I'm afraid it would be both.
By that I mean there's a good chance they would support Catholics, especially if they gain the imperial title, but a good part of their demesnes (Flanders, maybe Alsace) is going to possibly switch to Reformation.

It may to thier benefit to fail to get the imperial title in the short term..

A EYW (Eighty Years Wars) equivalent isn't to be excluded, in addition of Reformation conflicts shitstorm that is likely going to happen in the whole HRE.

Theres no way to avoid such things, it would indeed be best to ride them.

If a dutch identity is made, it would be against them. At best, they would form some sort of Rheinish culture not unlike OTL one, but it wouldn't exactly an identity being supported by few cultural (especially linguistic) common points.

Stop reading my mind!

For an united HRE...I don't really see that happening at middle term. An unified HRE, maybe but after Reformation wars, with more limited ressources and a less favourable geopolitical situation, I confess I'm doubtful about much success on this up to the formation of a German state from Burgundian lands.

Yup, The best thing for them is to dutch more deutch!

I was thinking in terms of centuries really, I still need plot out the Immediate time period before I go deep into post reformation period...

In fact, screw Charles. Make Antoine of Burgundy survives his prime infancy. It would allow you to mold from scratch as he dided at two years old. Of course, he wouldn't be radically different from his brother but it gives enough room to have a different outcome.

This will work very well, I can make the cautious and long term thinker I need to save lotharingia.

..

 

[Van555]

I always thought it would be interesting to see Burgundy turn into a bit of a western *Austria; a multicultural, dynastic realm with Dijon prospering as a cross-roads of different cultures. Honestly, considering the power of the Duke of Burgundy, I could see his descendants actually vying against the Hapburgs for the imperial title at some point. Which, of course, changes the development of the HRE.

My plan is for the hapsburgs to not inherit spain at all, Meaning that they won't have all that new world money to throw around everywhere, leaving things open for lotharingia, Bavaria and maybe even Saxony to duke it out with the Archdukes...

 

[LSCatilina]

It may to thier benefit to fail to get the imperial title in the short term..

Thing is, who'd have it? Habsburg? Bavarians? Valois?
It's in their interest to have the imperial title as soon as possible in order to increase their odds of survival, and it's not in their interest if they want to "ride" Reformation crisis.

Basically, that would be the first Seldon Crisis...err, contradiction they'd need to resolve.

Theres no way to avoid such things, it would indeed be best to ride them.

Soo...Protestant screw then?

Stop reading my mind!

When you'll stop having so naughty toughts, you pervert!

Yup, The best thing for them is to dutch more deutch!

I...don't get that, sorry.

This will work very well, I can make the cautious and long term thinker I need to save lotharingia.

Well, remember you need to have some sort of Burgundy screw, aka loosing much of their french holdings, in order to allow them to survive as a HRE state, and not as a "border dynastic union".
So, not that much of cautious thinker, and more of a chronically maniaco-depressive looser that manage to catch a second breath.

I don't think it would be called Lotharingia, though. If they manage to keep at least Free County, they could keep the name "Burgundy", or maybe adopt "Burgundy-Luxembourg" or "Burgundy-Lorraine".

 

[Van555]

Thing is, who'd have it? Habsburg? Bavarians? Valois?
It's in their interest to have the imperial title as soon as possible in order to increase their odds of survival, and it's not in their interest if they want to "ride" Reformation crisis.

Let the Wittlesbach have the Poison chalice when he reformation hits...

Basically, that would be the first Seldon Crisis...err, contradiction they'd need to resolve.

True enough I suppose, But I can't shake the feeling the need to hold the 17 Provinces to be a true power, I suppose they could try tolerance or embracing moderate reform themselves?

Soo...Protestant screw then?

No that wouldn't really make sense, the catholic world's periphery would get fed up at some point...


When you'll stop having so naughty toughts, you pervert!

Never!


I...don't get that, sorry.

Oh I just meant that the Dutch Identity would need to stay somewhat german to have smoother sailing.


Well, remember you need to have some sort of Burgundy screw, aka loosing much of their french holdings, in order to allow them to survive as a HRE state, and not as a "border dynastic union".
So, not that much of cautious thinker, and more of a chronically maniaco-depressive looser that manage to catch a second breath.

Leaning towards the Timid then, whose flaws and cautiousness allow for a nation to survive...
Better than your usual god kings I suppose...

 

[LSCatilina]

True enough I suppose, But I can't shake the feeling the need to hold the 17 Provinces to be a true power, I suppose they could try tolerance or embracing moderate reform themselves?

Sort of Politiques united around Burgundians? I'm not sure it could work there.
It was too close of Protestant "cores", Imperial title was even more tied to defense of (technically) Roman catholicism than french, and while the (still in the crib) french national identity could have played (as well than a better establishment of Valois than their imperial counterparts in their kingdom).

Just think about the shitstorm Augsburg Interim caused.

Co-existance and stregthening of royal authority aren't going to be much popular in Germany, whatever amongst Protestant or Catholic rulers.

No that wouldn't really make sense, the catholic world's periphery would get fed up at some point...

Yeah, but apart crushing Protestantism quickly after the OTL first conflicts, I don't see how to prevent or lower the said crisis.
It's either that, of make Burgundy suffer it.

Leaning towards the Timid then, whose flaws and cautiousness allow for a nation to survive...

Counter-intuitive PoDs are best king of PoDs

Better than your usual god kings I suppose...

I wasn't under the impression my characters were flawless. If something, it would be the contrary up to the caricature but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Van555]

Sort of Politiques united around Burgundians? I'm not sure it could work there.
It was too close of Protestant "cores", Imperial title was even more tied to defense of (technically) Roman catholicism than french, and while the (still in the crib) french national identity could have played (as well than a better establishment of Valois than their imperial counterparts in their kingdom).

True, I think they I think they'll have to choose a side...

Just think about the shitstorm Augsburg Interim caused.

I kind of want to say fuck the pope though...


Co-existance and stregthening of royal authority aren't going to be much popular in Germany, whatever amongst Protestant or Catholic rulers.

They'll need to be able to do it for their domains at least.


Yeah, but apart crushing Protestantism quickly after the OTL first conflicts, I don't see how to prevent or lower the said crisis.
It's either that, of make Burgundy suffer it.

Thiers going to be some Suffering but the Former Burgundians now Lothirengens are going to have to thread that needle.


Counter-intuitive PoDs are best king of PoDs

Agreed


I wasn't under the impression my characters were flawless. If something, it would be the contrary up to the caricature but maybe I'm wrong.

I was referring to your characters , I meant your in the general sense!

God I'm the worst english speaker!

 

[LSCatilina]

I kind of want to say fuck the pope though...

It's less the pope alone than Catholics noble thinking that Protestants were tolerated at their expanse, Protestant thinking they were still oppressed, and both Valois and Ottomans sitting down and eating pop-corn while enjoying the show.

And of course pontifical opinion is quite relevant, a relativly powerful Catholic noble saying "Hey, your Holinessy, you can see how much these Burgundians are bad people. Gimme the title and they won't have much to say".

They'll need to be able to do it for their domains at least.

Not really. As part of HRE they would have to comply at some point (safe HRE collapsing of course), and as holder of imperial title, they'd be kind of forced to apply it at home (would it be only to prevent Flanders to get away with all the monies.

 

[Van555]

It's less the pope alone than Catholics noble thinking that Protestants were tolerated at their expanse, Protestant thinking they were still oppressed, and both Valois and Ottomans sitting down and eating pop-corn while enjoying the show.

And of course pontifical opinion is quite relevant, a relativly powerful Catholic noble saying "Hey, your Holinessy, you can see how much these Burgundians are bad people. Gimme the title and they won't have much to say".

True the habsburgs were able to reconvert everyone in thier lands so I guess its not impossible, but if the Bavarias Or austrians held the emperorship at the time maybe the Lotheringens might go on the Protestant wagon, or Stay Catholic I suppose I can't decide I should probably plan out the pre luther times before getting hung up on it...

Not really. As part of HRE they would have to comply at some point (safe HRE collapsing of course), and as holder of imperial title, they'd be kind of forced to apply it at home (would it be only to prevent Flanders to get away with all the monies.

Man Looking at my answer of " They'll need to be able to do it for their domains at least" I have no idea what I was saying,Can you tell me what you thought I was saying right there.

 

[LSCatilina]

True the habsburgs were able to reconvert everyone in thier lands so I guess its not impossible, but if the Bavarias Or austrians held the emperorship at the time maybe the Lotheringens might go on the Protestant wagon, or Stay Catholic I suppose I can't decide I should probably plan out the pre luther times before getting hung up on it...

Going Protestant would mean both
- Not getting imperial title
- Being surrounded by Catholic powers.

Granted, United Provinces did so brillantly, but mostly because they were a maritime power and not after 80 years of war and with the indirect support of some neighbours.

Frankly, going on Catholic side increase significantly Burgundians' chances, and a Protestant-screw make them much higher.

With a 1430 PoD, Reformation would still happen but you have still almost 90 years to change it significantly. Luther dies or never becomes a monk, different groups appears, Roman Church actually make some effort on its own, etc.
At this point, you should take interest on any useful butterfly.

Man Looking at my answer of " They'll need to be able to do it for their domains at least" I have no idea what I was saying,Can you tell me what you thought I was saying right there.

I tought you said something like : the HRE can turn such a way, but Burgundy could try to apply something different on its own estates, separatly from other german states.

 

[Van555]

Going Protestant would mean both
- Not getting imperial title
- Being surrounded by Catholic powers.

Granted, United Provinces did so brillantly, but mostly because they were a maritime power and not after 80 years of war and with the indirect support of some neighbours.

Frankly, going on Catholic side increase significantly Burgundians' chances, and a Protestant-screw make them much higher.

With a 1430 PoD, Reformation would still happen but you have still almost 90 years to change it significantly. Luther dies or never becomes a monk, different groups appears, Roman Church actually make some effort on its own, etc.
At this point, you should take interest on any useful butterfly.

That's true a church crisis could still happen , but maybe we could get a conciliarism movement could pick up steam and a more permanent schism could happen. and the Pope could be less of an asshole and actually open up to real reform

Your rights Its time to get different!


I tought you said something like : the HRE can turn such a way, but Burgundy could try to apply something different on its own estates, separatly from other german states.

Nah Anthony the Timid could also be called the german for how much he'll for some reason like the empire.
(I'm thinking the Reason is they saved his ass from France )

 

[LSCatilina]

Nah Anthony the Timid could also be called the german for how much he'll for some reason like the empire.
(I'm thinking the Reason is they saved his ass from France )

The only good reason why Ealry Habsburgs would have "saved his ass", would be the rear alliance that they more or less tried to set up OTL but failed to maintain because they just didn't gave a fuck about it as they were stuck between their immediate interest (Gaining badboy at an accelerated rate) and their more long term half-assed goals (Gaining a crown).

So, a Burgundy fighting over both France and foes of the emperor (Swiss, Bavaria, possibly Bohemia)?

"Saving his ass" begins more and more looking as : France grab whatever it please them, inside its feudal limits or so, Sigismond of Austria conning his way trough Alsace, and Frederic III being not able to intervene military efficiently for cause of major rebellions almost everywhere manages to keep Burgundy a thing within HRE lines.

This could be a reasonable expectation then.
Black : possible Burgundian lands, Red : Reasonable enough Louis IX claims (OTL, he passed quite near to grab it all), Purple : If really lucky, Burgundy could keep these.

Not that Burgundy or HRE couldn't take some of it back eventually of course. But if OTL Habsburg crownkemon (gotta catch them all) failed to do so efficiently, a much reduced Burgundy would have trouble doing so.