The Heirs of Lothar: An Alternate Burgundian Inheritance Timeline.

Van555

Acknowledgements: Even if this timeline sputters out I would like to thank the whole site really but LSCatilina in particular for inspiring me to get this idea off the ground.

Forward: The death of Charles the Bold in 1477 and collapse of Independent duchy of Burgundy can be considered one of the many turning points in history as it served to secure the integrity of the French state and solidify the hegemony of the Austrian Habsburgs over the Holy Roman Empire. The conflict between the French and the empires of the Habsburg would define the conflict in Europe for centuries to come. This timeline envisions a world where the Habsburgs didn’t receive The Burgundian Inheritance, and instead the Vaudémont. In time this creates another power with the Holy Roman Empire, which after struggling to survive the Crisis of the Catholic Church manages to secure the role of a Prince Elector and becomes Emperor at least once.

Author’s Note I must warn you that this timeline may be too lights on butterflies at least at first because I have barely any idea what I’m doing. Comments and Critique are very much welcome and never hesitate to point out anything egregiously stupid.

Without further ado let’s get things started.
 

Van555

Quotes About Duke Anthony the Timid, Lived (1430-1485), Ruled (1467-1485)

"The Meek were meant to inherit the inherit the earth, not Burgundy!"

-Attributed to Philip the Good on this son and heir, circa 1453 or 1466

"The only good thing that can be said about him is that his death allows for the Burgundian Inheritance event to fire which makes playing as Lotheringens Interesting"

-Poster Charlemagne In the Thread "Worst rulers of *EU time period on the *Paradox Forums

- "You couldn't ask for a better uncle."

Mary of Burgundy in defense of her uncle. In the Eponymous Historical Fiction Book published in 1985.

-"He Shows Spine Now!"

Attributed by Fredrick III of Austria and Louis XII of France at various times.

- " Anthony the Cautious more than anyone else ensured that Rene II of Lorraine was one of luckiest men of the age and certainly within the empire."

Excerpt from A Short History of Holy Roman Empire by Dr. Declan Corrigan
 
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False Dmitri

I like the mix of factual and fictional and trans-dimensional sources! If I ever re-start one of my old TLs that is how I plan to present it.

Can I suggest "Anthony the Wary" instead of "the Cautious"?
 

Van555

False Dmitri said:
I like the mix of factual and fictional and trans-dimensional sources! If I ever re-start one of my old TLs that is how I plan to present it.

Can I suggest "Anthony the Wary" instead of "the Cautious"?
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That's a good idea, In fact the first thing I want to cover is the Issue of his nicknames and reasonings behind them over time.
 

Larus Marinus

I've messed around with similar ideas myself, so I look forward to seeing what you do with it. Subscribed.

Let me know if you need any maps made for it. I made one for the last major Burgundian TL on the boards, but it unfortunately died out a while ago.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

False Dmitri said:
Probably it would be the same German name, I just think Wary sounds more "royal" in English.
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That kind of defeat the purpose intended, making Antoine looking as a looser.
"Cautious" is neutral, more or less benevolent.
"Wary" could even be less pejorative than that.

"Timid" fits in quite well, not too overly despising but underlining what the TL wants to.
 

Van555

(Warning alludes to events that may never happen!)

From Anthony of Burgundy The True founder of the West Reich?

What’s in a Name?

Whether the Cautious or the Timid serves as a better epithet for Anthony has often depended upon the biases of the writer. I know that sentence superfluous but it still needed to be said. As soon as Anthony body became cold the fight over his character and legacy began in earnest. Mary and Renee attempts to have The Wise attributed to him didn’t really stick, as nobody of the times could honestly describe him as such. His religious tolerance, and belief in renaissance humanism and even religious reform, while laudable today was entirely unappreciated in his time and were unceremoniously shelved after a disappointed first few months of rule. Quite a few historians have tried to connect developments in the Low Countries and in Lorraine/lothringen to his influence but it’s quite a stretch. [1]

Calling him the Cautious has only come in prominence over the last two and half centuries or so but has only become dominant in the Age of Nationalism and decline of the Great Man theory. [2] Pascal Schmitt ‘s [3] seminal work On the German Peoples says the following:

“ Anton despite his noted weakness can be seen as one of early pan-Germans, despite being mostly French himself! Whether it was his alignment with the Holy Roman Empire, declaration of the Burgundian War and his efforts to arrange for the smooth inheritance of his surviving realm under Rene II of Lorraine. Even in his twilight years his advocacy for being involved in the Breton War and His belief that His nephew in law should let the French bleed himself in Italy shows that recognized the threat posed by Paris and was one of first defenders of the imperial west.”

He’s not wrong really; Anthony seems to have understood that if burgundy tried to stay independent of France and the Empire it would be crushed like Lothar’s Middle Francia before it. Though it came at a terrible cost, he chose his side and even his father would be somewhat proud of how much he believed that France should never rule of House of Burgundy again, even though it ended up losing the house most of its name sake duchy and while also ending the bloodline.

Those calling him Timid wouldn’t really be incorrect; in truth he was the dictionary definition of Timid. His brother dominated his Reign and he did not truly break from the shadow of his father and brother until he had almost lost everything including his own son. It is only late into his life and reign that his talents as negotiator and organizer could truly be seen and by then he has committed himself to securing his remaining holdings for the benefit of his Niece. He refused his emperors request for Mary’s hand in marriage and dashed one of the Hapsburg’s best opportunities to secure true imperial hegemony. [4] There is a reason his motto was “We must think not for now but for the ages”

[1] Turns out the Merchants of the lowlands didn’t really like Jews, the Clergy of his didn’t want to live simple lives, and both didn’t want to pay more taxes to build universities who knew! :rolleyes: Anthony’s a bit of an optimist early on.

[2] It’s still probably going to happen possibly leading to big united Germany, or two or three sizeable germanies. Also Historiography talk is fun

[3] Ah.Com In joke/ LTTW reference

[4] I may be overemphasizing this, but the Habsburgs are seen as ITL as in OTL as attempting to secure permanent control of the imperial throne. ITTL they never able to get that kind of security.
 
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Van555

LSCatilina said:
That kind of defeat the purpose intended, making Antoine looking as a looser.
"Cautious" is neutral, more or less benevolent.
"Wary" could even be less pejorative than that.

"Timid" fits in quite well, not too overly despising but underlining what the TL wants to.
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Shoot hold on let me fix something.
 

Janprimus

The descriptions of Habsburg HRE Frederick III weren't too flattering either, IOTL he managed to gain most of the Burgundian Inheritance IOTL without having to pay the originally demanded price by Charles the Bold.
In Austria he regained occupied lands by outliving the occupying monarch.
 
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Van555

That was long enough already but While I have it on my mind.

Introduction to Historical Commentary on The Fall of the House of Burgundy Series website

It was nine years ago that first in The Fall of the House of Burgundy series was published and preceded to take the world by storm. It succeeded in gaining an unprecedented audience for historical fiction novel. From there A PF* series based on the Book the Terrible Decade has found unprecedented success with a world wide audience.

While commended for its Historical accuracy, the series does stray from the historical record, and if you want to know where you've come to the right place!

*Portable Film perhaps this world's TV if this doesn't pan out its just TV.
 
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Van555

Janprimus said:
The descriptions of Habsburg HRE Frederick III weren't too flattering either, IOTL he managed to most of the Burgundian Inheritance IOTL without having to pay the originally demanded price by Charles the Bold.
In Austria he regained occupied lands by outliving the occupying monarch.
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Wait I'm sorry :confused: I don't really get what your saying here :eek:.

In the fictional author's defense He's from the Alternate British Isles and they have a slight bias towards the Western Realm because of its strong anti France position.
 

Janprimus

Van555 said:
Wait I'm sorry :confused: I don't really get what your saying here :eek:.

In the fictional author's defense He's from the Alternate British Isles and they have a slight bias towards the Western Realm because of its strong anti France position.
Click to expand...

Firstly I forgot the word gain, I corrected that a while ago. Must be, because of how late it was over here.:eek:

I was referring to Antoine being described as timid. Frederick III was described as hestitant, a slow decision maker, in hindsight it turned out that he had the patience to sit out difficult political situations.* Pope Pius II apparently described Emperor Frederick III as a person, who wants to conquer the world from his chair.

In short personality traits can be positive and negative.

*= for instance Vienna was 5 years occupied by king Mathias Corvinus of Hungary, but Frederick could regain it relatively easily after the death of Mathias.
 
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Van555

Ah I see!

We'll the good news is I'm going to try to get Anthony's early life.
 
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Van555

The Fall of the House of Burgundy

Act I: Life in the Borderlands: 1430-1467
Part One: The Count Who Lived: 1430-1444
Part Two: Carpe Diem and the Golden Years in Artois: 1444-1453
Part Three: To Honor Thy Brother and Thy Father: 1453-1456
Part Four: In Service of The Spider Prince: 1456-1461
Part Five: The Melancholy of Anthony and Preparation for a Diarchy:1461-1465

Act II: "This is Charles's Folly!" The Bold's Ambition : 1465-1477
Part Six: I Can't Believe it's Not a Regency!: 1467-1474
Part Seven: The Burgundian War: 1474-1477
Part Eight: There's Something About Mary:1477

Act III: "We Must Think Not For Now but for the Ages": 1477-1485
Part 9: 1477-1484: One must Pull what we can out of the fire.
Part 10: 1484-1485: "It seems death hangs about me"
 
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Van555

Act I: Life in the Borderlands: 1430-1467

Part One: The Count Who Lived: 1430-1444

"It would have been better if you has died twenty years ago! "

Phillip the Good of Burgundy to Count Anthony of Charolais in 1552 in the Fall of the House of Burgundy.

“…Like many children of the age, Anthony’s first three years were the most dangerous. While the closest Anthony came to dying was on February 5, 1432 (1), he seemed merely a hair’s breadth away form death until the birth of his brother Charles in the fall of 1433 (2). When news arrived in Dijon that Anthony had begun to recover it left Phillip in a bit of an awkward situation, as he now had two Counts of Charolais. He had assumed that his eldest son would finally pass into heaven when he had moved the majority of his court to Dijon as part of the rituals required to manage the diverse assets and lands of his realm and secure the legitimacy of what he assumed would be his only surviving heir. To be fair to Philip, Anthony had been given his last rights at least three times between February 5, 1432 and November 10, 1433. It had even been arranged that he would buried at the same as his brother Josse who passed on May 6, 1432. (3) Keeping this in mind as his presumed heir Charles had been given the title of Count of Charolais, but because Anthony was still amongst the living we was also among the living, he was also Count of Charolais. Phillip dealt with this issue by just having them both be Count of Charolais. (4) It was the first of many decisions that would eventually lead up to Phillip the Good formulating what would become known as the Burgundian Diarchy…”

Excerpt from Grant Covington’s (5) essay “The Brothers Charolais: the relationship between the last scions of Burgundy."

(1) Our POD, Ladies and Gentleman though at this point it should be fairly clear.
(2) Weird how that happens ;)
(3) Antoine even in his youngest days is rather indecisive.
(4) IIRC Correctly the Palatinate of the Rhine did this a lot.
(5) My go to guy TTL timeline for information with good content but terrible grammar and spelling.
 
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