Still not sure who he'll wed. You have to think that foreign ambassadors have reported about him to their monarchs/governments. Who would be willing to wed his daughter to a young man who already has a reputation like his? (Uh, since there seemed to be no audience for an interlude, we lost his attempted assault on Clemency.)
The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine
- Thread starter desmirelle
- Start date
June 1526
8 June
The feast began three hours later, to allow all invited to make their way. The new bride and groom were center stage, with the bride's step-mother to her right and the groom's parents on his left. John found himself between his sister Mary (who went on and on about the pretty gowns) and his 'companion' William Howard, who elbowed John whenever John said something nasty to his sister. Finally, William leaned over and whispered: "Once more and we go to our rooms. That, my prince, is my oath." Only then did John speak only politely to everyone (even Mary, agreeing that he'd never seen such beautiful clothes) before one of Renee's English maids (Peggy) began discussing the dresses with Mary. John was about to join in the conversation when William insisted they switch seats. Reluctantly, John did so. John liked the pretty Margaret "Peggy" Howard, roughly a year and a half his junior. She was a Howard and knew it and refused to react to any of his actions towards her. His actions towards Renee often brought a scolding from both her and another of Renee's maids, Anne Stanhope, about the same amount of time older than he. Neither tolerated his "jokes" on their mistress.
The feast began three hours later, to allow all invited to make their way. The new bride and groom were center stage, with the bride's step-mother to her right and the groom's parents on his left. John found himself between his sister Mary (who went on and on about the pretty gowns) and his 'companion' William Howard, who elbowed John whenever John said something nasty to his sister. Finally, William leaned over and whispered: "Once more and we go to our rooms. That, my prince, is my oath." Only then did John speak only politely to everyone (even Mary, agreeing that he'd never seen such beautiful clothes) before one of Renee's English maids (Peggy) began discussing the dresses with Mary. John was about to join in the conversation when William insisted they switch seats. Reluctantly, John did so. John liked the pretty Margaret "Peggy" Howard, roughly a year and a half his junior. She was a Howard and knew it and refused to react to any of his actions towards her. His actions towards Renee often brought a scolding from both her and another of Renee's maids, Anne Stanhope, about the same amount of time older than he. Neither tolerated his "jokes" on their mistress.
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Margaret is the daughter of Lord Edmund Howard, the son of the second Duke of Norfolk and the brother/bother to the third. (Yes, she's Catherine Howard's older sister.) OTL she wed Sir Thomas Arundell of Wardour Castle. The Peggy I took from list of nicknames for Margaret in this era. Have no idea if she had a nickname or not. She does in this TL.
Anne Stanhope, in OTL was the wife of Edward Seymour and was considered very proud (she, on at least one occasion, tried to usurp Dowager Queen Katheryn Parr's position as first lady in the land). Edward's first wife (Catherine Fillol) was the village bicycle (or hackney, to use the French King Francis' comments on Mary Boleyn) - her two sons with Edward may or may not have been his. The marriage was annulled (or had died, the timing seems close) and the boys disinherited as their paternity was in doubt (some suggest Edward's father was both father and grandfather to them).
Anne Stanhope, in OTL was the wife of Edward Seymour and was considered very proud (she, on at least one occasion, tried to usurp Dowager Queen Katheryn Parr's position as first lady in the land). Edward's first wife (Catherine Fillol) was the village bicycle (or hackney, to use the French King Francis' comments on Mary Boleyn) - her two sons with Edward may or may not have been his. The marriage was annulled (or had died, the timing seems close) and the boys disinherited as their paternity was in doubt (some suggest Edward's father was both father and grandfather to them).
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I am thinking of an English bride for John rather than a foreign one. Not that there aren't girls abroad, but the selection in house (so to speak) is also vast. Think about the two above (thanks to some advice): Anne has the haughtiness and wedding his daughter to a royal prince is probably Edmund Howard's wet dream.
I doubt who Edmund’s daughter would be taken in consideration at all. Anne Stanhope could work, but as alternatives either lady Anne Bourchier (who was a very wealthy heiress) or lady Katherine Howard (born around 1515 like Margaret, who in OTL was briefly Countess of Derby for some months before dying for the plague between 1529 and 1530) who is Norfolk’s elder daughter as Margaret Howard has neither the rank or the money for being taken in consideration.
I know Edmund Howard is a pathetic excuse of a father. But if John likes her and treats her well . . . . weirder things have happened OTL. And I did say it was his dream. She's already in waiting for Renee, so - given that OTL John's father was wedding the 'in-waiting' ladies - anything's possible. Although I am leaning towards Anne myself - she proved OTL she had a spine of steel.
The point is who Margaret Howard is absolutely unsuitable as Duchess of York.
And her younger sister Catherine was unsuitable as Queen. OTL, H8 has a weird marital history. So, I've researched and ruled out Bourchier. Which other young English Roses are ripe for John?
A King can marry whatever he wished, for a Duke of York is not so easy. If you do not want Anne Bourchier then Katherine Howard (Norfolk and Elizabeth Stafford‘s eldest daughter born in 1515) as her father would dower her extremely well or I guess who Anne Stanhope could work
Katherine Willoughby (OTL Duchess of Suffolk) is a rich heiress and will become ward of the King as soon her father died in 1526, but as she is born in 1519 and her mother is Catherine of Aragon’s best and most loyal friend she will marry Edward NOT John.
Okay, I would like input from everyone as to who (English or Foreign) Prince John, Duke of York should wed. I just got a new 15-piece Dice set from my brother (and an additional Copper 100 sided die), so I'm eager to roll for this.
@isabella: Peggy will only get one spot. Which will make how much a chance she has lower than the others (who will be getting at least 2 spots, maybe 3, depending on the responses I receive on who young John should marry.
@isabella: Peggy will only get one spot. Which will make how much a chance she has lower than the others (who will be getting at least 2 spots, maybe 3, depending on the responses I receive on who young John should marry.
One of the Cleves girls? Or, he could always be a cardinal...
Prince John, already Duke of York will never a clergyman be. But Anne and Amalia are now on the list.
The list so far:
Margaret "Peggy" Howard, daughter of Edmund, niece to the Duke of Norfolk. A long shot.
Anne of Cleaves
Amalia of Cleaves
Anne Bourchier
Anne Stanhope
And, @isabella, I will need your feedback on which of the 'girls' in the lottery should also have 1 entry for the roll or extra rolls.
All others (and @isabella) please submit more names.
Margaret "Peggy" Howard, daughter of Edmund, niece to the Duke of Norfolk. A long shot.
Anne of Cleaves
Amalia of Cleaves
Anne Bourchier
Anne Stanhope
Who else?
And, @isabella, I will need your feedback on which of the 'girls' in the lottery should also have 1 entry for the roll or extra rolls.
All others (and @isabella) please submit more names.
Katherine Howard (
So as @desmirelle asked me this is the list of possible brides for John:
Likeliest choices (extra rolls for both)
Anne Bourchier (she was her father’s heiress presumptive)
Katherine Howard (Norfolk’s eldest daughter, she would get a great dowry and has a very prestigious ascendency)
Unlikely but possible
Anne Stanhope (a decent heiress with good relationship with the Court, but more than two years older than John, likely 4/5 years older)
Catherine de Medici (niece of the Pope and the Duke of Albany, her family is barely of noble rank but on her mother‘s side she is a French heiress with good lands)
Longshot (only one entry each)
Anna or Amalia of Cleves (they would bring a decent dowry and foreign alliance, but neither England or Cleves have reasons for being much interested ATL and the Duke is far likelier to search a ruler/heir than the second son of a king, specially one with John’s reputation)
Margaret Howard: daughter of an Howard cadet, without money, need to be an elopement or a shotgun wedding
Not to be taken in consideration at all:
Katherine Willoughby: Edmund’s intended bride as long she has no brother
Mary of Guise, Mary of Bourbon, Marguerite of Bourbon, Anne of Lorraine and Isabella of Navarre: the King of France is nephew of Henry VIII and his half-sister is Princess of Wales so they have no need to waste a proxy on the Duke of York (specially considering his reputation) and England do not need another tie to France (unless that tie is the wedding of Mary Katherine or Eleanor to her cousin the King)
Dorothea or Christina of Denmark: too young and they will marry only rulers or heirs as they and their cousin Maria of Portugal are the only female relatives of their age who Charles V has available.
Katherine Howard and Anne Bourchier (whatever is the marital history and personality of the latter) are the strongest candidate for him so they deserve the highest number of rolls, Anne Stanhope, Anne of Cleves, Amalia of Cleves and Catherine de Medici could work but are much less likely. France has already the Princess of Wales so they have no interest to give a princess of blood or another proxy to York, specially as they know his cruelty so Mary and Margaret of Bourbon, Marie of Guise, Anne of Lorraine and Isabella of Navarre are out of the list. The Danish girls are totally out of question as they are both too young and too valuable for York while Katherine Willoughby is out of question as she will be Edmund’s wife not John’s for both her age and the fact who Katherine of Aragon would want her for her third son not the second. Frances Brandon here do not exist and Margaret Douglas, if she existed, would NOT be taken in consideration as she would not bring any true advantage.
So as @desmirelle asked me this is the list of possible brides for John:
Likeliest choices (extra rolls for both)
Anne Bourchier (she was her father’s heiress presumptive)
Katherine Howard (Norfolk’s eldest daughter, she would get a great dowry and has a very prestigious ascendency)
Unlikely but possible
Anne Stanhope (a decent heiress with good relationship with the Court, but more than two years older than John, likely 4/5 years older)
Catherine de Medici (niece of the Pope and the Duke of Albany, her family is barely of noble rank but on her mother‘s side she is a French heiress with good lands)
Longshot (only one entry each)
Anna or Amalia of Cleves (they would bring a decent dowry and foreign alliance, but neither England or Cleves have reasons for being much interested ATL and the Duke is far likelier to search a ruler/heir than the second son of a king, specially one with John’s reputation)
Margaret Howard: daughter of an Howard cadet, without money, need to be an elopement or a shotgun wedding
Not to be taken in consideration at all:
Katherine Willoughby: Edmund’s intended bride as long she has no brother
Mary of Guise, Mary of Bourbon, Marguerite of Bourbon, Anne of Lorraine and Isabella of Navarre: the King of France is nephew of Henry VIII and his half-sister is Princess of Wales so they have no need to waste a proxy on the Duke of York (specially considering his reputation) and England do not need another tie to France (unless that tie is the wedding of Mary Katherine or Eleanor to her cousin the King)
Dorothea or Christina of Denmark: too young and they will marry only rulers or heirs as they and their cousin Maria of Portugal are the only female relatives of their age who Charles V has available.
I can not see any reason for which either England but specially Portugal would be interested in the match, specially considering her OTL marriage (John III need heiresses for his younger brothers and persuaded the Braganza to give a great dowry to Isabella for his own brother).
England would NOT get any kind of benefit from an italian match so I can not see such match going on (plus I can not think to any plausible bride from there)
Great