The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine

Ok, I'm out of the hospital and the internet seems to like me at the moment. Let's see what mischief I can get into here.

I still don't know how Francis (OTL Francis I) will die. I'm not sure when he die. Dowager Queen Marie of France lives to a ripe old age, according to the gaming dice. (A less obnoxious Louise perhaps?)

I don't like the way the dice are treating Anne Boleyn. They want her to go to Ireland. If she stays in England, they want her bout of sweat to be fatal. They won't leave her in France (which might have seen a marriage, but I don't know to whom).

I've rolled for when Renee comes to England as treaty bait bride for Hal.
 
@ordinarylittleme :

I actually had NO plans for Anne Boleyn, in fact, I was thinking about leaving her in France. However, I do know that she played a BIG part in the OTL, so I figured some would want to know about her; hence the rolling. Two out the three, she ended up in Ireland. So, Ireland it is. Since it was Henry VIII's idea to wed her to Butler (before he knew her and before she met Percy), this time her 'attractions' won't be near enough for Henry to set aside the idea. I believe (OTL) it was Anne who got Thomas Boleyn the earldom of Ormond (Henry trying to get into her bloomers). Since H8 has two healthy living sons here, the gaming dice rule that Mistress Anne will go to Ireland to settle the dispute.
 
I'm of two minds with Anne: I believe she was intelligent and clever, but I do not believe she was the model of Christian virtue she pretended to be. {The reasons for this belief: One, she had to know that she was in the same position as Henry (her older sister had been bedded by Henry) and that her marriage would be as unable to be 'made right' since H8 was claiming this "incest" could not be dispensed by the Pope to disavow Katherine (ignoring Deuteronomy to get his way). Two: a virtuous woman wouldn't be after someone else's husband. Coveting is against one of the ten commandments. Third, by claiming all that virtue and honesty (won't give it up 'til she's wed, but does) and all the vitriol against Katherine, Anne set herself up for reaping what she sowed - see Proverbs 30: 21 - 23; she falls under the fourth thing the earth cannot bear: a maidservant when she displaces her mistress. Anne got, to some degree, what she played for. She promised something she could not control to get Katherine's husband and failed to deliver. A fatal miscalculation when dealing with Henry.
 
I'm of two minds with Anne: I believe she was intelligent and clever, but I do not believe she was the model of Christian virtue she pretended to be. {The reasons for this belief: One, she had to know that she was in the same position as Henry (her older sister had been bedded by Henry) and that her marriage would be as unable to be 'made right' since H8 was claiming this "incest" could not be dispensed by the Pope to disavow Katherine (ignoring Deuteronomy to get his way). Two: a virtuous woman wouldn't be after someone else's husband. Coveting is against one of the ten commandments. Third, by claiming all that virtue and honesty (won't give it up 'til she's wed, but does) and all the vitriol against Katherine, Anne set herself up for reaping what she sowed - see Proverbs 30: 21 - 23; she falls under the fourth thing the earth cannot bear: a maidservant when she displaces her mistress. Anne got, to some degree, what she played for. She promised something she could not control to get Katherine's husband and failed to deliver. A fatal miscalculation when dealing with Henry.
Anne DO NOT wanted neither Henry VIII OR the Crown. She wanted simply gently persuade the King who to give his attentions to someone who would welcomed them as she was NOT interested. What Anne wanted was freeing herself from the King’s advances and restart her search for a good match for herself as she wanted an husband and a family. When Henry offered her the Crown, Anne was smart enough to understand who she would not be able to marry anyone else so she accepted his courtship as she had no way out.
 
Christmas 1515 - February 1516
The time of Christ's birth celebrations in 1515 were trials for the queens of England and France. They were both too far along in their respective pregnancies to truly get comfortable no matter what they were doing, evening 'relaxing' didn't help; the babes were too active. Both women were privately convinced they were having boys. Mary had the added worry of keeping Louis on his diet and activity restrictions. If he had a repeat of the incident of last year, he might die before the birth and she wasn't so sure that Francis might not be above ensuring a son (or even a daughter) might not survive until christening. (Louis was sure of Francis, Marie was not.) Thankfully, he was so looking forward to 'the dauphin's' birth, that he obeyed his restrictions diligently. The celebrations were slightly pared back due to Marie's condition and Louis' health, but hardly anyone noticed: Francis was taking the lead in the festivities and his mother had no problem helping him.

Henry the Eighth was Henry the Eighth during this time. Katherine was only half surprised that Henry's 'present' to Charles Brandon was the Dukedom of Suffolk. Henry was trying to play matchmaker with his favorite courtier and the Archduchess Margaret of Austria, despite Brandon's betrothal to Elizabeth Grey. She mentally shook her head and thought to herself that he was going to get Charles in trouble with the Emperor and the English. Her adopted countrymen's attitude to this sort of advancement (unless it was happening to them) was not as welcoming as it might be. Then important thing was that the time was as peaceful as they'd both privately wished.

On January 10th, Prince Henry of England became Prince Henry, Prince of Wales in a flurry of celebrations. Hal behaved impeccably, making both parents proud. Four days later, Hal was a cousin. Marie gave birth to Charles Louis (named by his father without consulting the queen), a lad so hale and hearty his mother was surprised. Louis, was proud and considered the boy's rude health his reward (probably for following all the restrictions that had been put upon him by doctors).

Henry sent Thomas Boleyn to represent the English king at the christening of the lad. He was accompanied by his wife and caught up with his daughters there. The eldest, Mary, was to come home (Francis was showing what was, to her family and Queens Katherine and Mary, more attentions than he should) after the event. Boleyn was looking to secure her in marriage upon their return to England. When the Boleyns left France, Louis and Mary gifted her with cloth for a wedding gown and trousseau. Queen Marie made a personal gift to Mary of a sapphire and diamond necklace and bracelet. All that was left was to find their eldest a groom.

Princess Mary Katherine made her appearance on February 15. She was supposed to have been named Elizabeth (Henry's choice), but the newly-created Prince of Wales wanted to know why, if Father named him and Mother named John, why couldn't HE name the new baby. Feeling magnanimous (and sure that Hal would 'side' with his father), Henry told him to pick a name. And Hal did. Mary for his aunt the Queen of France and Katherine for his mum. Henry was just glad the boy hadn't picked Katherine's choice of Isabella.
 
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It's official, when Louis dies, Mary (or Marie, as her new countrymen refer to her) will remain in France. Charles Louis has his mother's crush's constitution. (Yeah, don't thank me, thank the dice.) The babe will be the next King of France.
 
@desmirelle: As Elizabeth and Isabella are variations of the same name, Henry and Catherine had no reason to disagree over her name: she would be Elizabeth and Katherine would call her Isabella in private (as her native Spanish used only Isabella)
 
@isabella: Henry wanted Elizabeth. Katherine wanted Isabella. I've already pointed out about the names being variations, it was a bit of a husband/wife thing between Henry and Katherine, and the Prince of Wales upset the applecart before Katherine had actually, truly, given in and done what you suggested - the baby is Mary Katherine, which neither parent wanted.

And the moral of the story is: don't let your child pick out his sibling's name.

[And I was not surprised that you called me out on what I did on purpose. You keep me on my toes, which is a good thing. I was surprised you didn't comment on Anne.]
 
@isabella: Henry wanted Elizabeth. Katherine wanted Isabella. I've already pointed out about the names being variations, it was a bit of a husband/wife thing between Henry and Katherine, and the Prince of Wales upset the applecart before Katherine had actually, truly, given in and done what you suggested - the baby is Mary Katherine, which neither parent wanted.

And the moral of the story is: don't let your child pick out his sibling's name.

[And I was not surprised that you called me out on what I did on purpose. You keep me on my toes, which is a good thing. I was surprised you didn't comment on Anne.]
I commented on Anne, still I doubt who her Irish match will go ahead as the reason for which it failed in OTL was who neither side was happy with that match (for Anne’s father that agreement was a loss)…
USER=42575]@isabella[/USER]: would it make you feel better if Katherine's choice was Joanna for her sister?
No, that would be stranger than her stubbornly insisting on Isabella. Henry is unlikely to want call the girl Margaret so… I guess who Catherine was simply way too much stubborn for her good (as Elizabeth and Isabella were used almost interchangeably, depending from the language)
 
@isabella: we are never going to see eye-to-eye on Anne Boleyn, are we? But to reply to your comment (which apparently arrived while I was typing the next update), all Anne had to do was let Katherine know that Mary Boleyn had bedded Katherine's husband. Anne went along and assumed the power Henry offered, and disparaged the queen - which she did not have to do. I don't believe she was all that innocent in the matter. She was corrupted by power, if nothing else. If Katherine had known (or been sure of) Mary Boleyn's affair with Henry, she would have used it when the "Great Matter" was going on. Anne may have started with the best of intentions (for herself and Henry), but at some point she had to make up her mind to collude with Henry in deposing of Katherine. I think she could have avoided the whole thing if she'd hid behind her sister's skirts as the basis for her refusal. I don't think Anne, as smart and clever as she was in most things, was either smart or clever in the device she used to hold Henry at bay. She had an excuse to refuse to be his mistress. She had an excuse to refuse his offer of marriage (which, at the time she accepted it, made her Henry's secret fiancee), but she did not use it. Now, if it had been Catherine Howard . . . but we're talking Anne Boleyn. Anne knew it was wrong to accept the proposal, should have stood up for Christian principles, but failed to do so. Anne could have backed the Pope's ruling to keep her integrity. She did not. At some point, she began craving power, which makes her more interesting and (to me) more human.

As I wrote: we are never going to see eye-to-eye. But that's what makes the world interesting.
 
That's a nice big family tree for Henry VIII there - if you don't mention it as different is everything still happening like OTL?
 
@isabella: we are never going to see eye-to-eye on Anne Boleyn, are we? But to reply to your comment (which apparently arrived while I was typing the next update), all Anne had to do was let Katherine know that Mary Boleyn had bedded Katherine's husband. Anne went along and assumed the power Henry offered, and disparaged the queen - which she did not have to do. I don't believe she was all that innocent in the matter. She was corrupted by power, if nothing else. If Katherine had known (or been sure of) Mary Boleyn's affair with Henry, she would have used it when the "Great Matter" was going on. Anne may have started with the best of intentions (for herself and Henry), but at some point she had to make up her mind to collude with Henry in deposing of Katherine. I think she could have avoided the whole thing if she'd hid behind her sister's skirts as the basis for her refusal. I don't think Anne, as smart and clever as she was in most things, was either smart or clever in the device she used to hold Henry at bay. She had an excuse to refuse to be his mistress. She had an excuse to refuse his offer of marriage (which, at the time she accepted it, made her Henry's secret fiancee), but she did not use it. Now, if it had been Catherine Howard . . . but we're talking Anne Boleyn. Anne knew it was wrong to accept the proposal, should have stood up for Christian principles, but failed to do so. Anne could have backed the Pope's ruling to keep her integrity. She did not. At some point, she began craving power, which makes her more interesting and (to me) more human.

As I wrote: we are never going to see eye-to-eye. But that's what makes the world interesting.
What you do not understand is who when Henry offered marriage to her Anne had exactly two choices: accepting to marry him or renounce to marry and close herself in a convent (and she had no intention to do that). Katherine and her supporters disparaged Anne, destroying her reputation when Anne had exactly no other choice than play along with Henry and his plans (the alternative would be the ruin for her and her family).
 
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What you do not understand is who when Henry offered marriage to her Anne had exactly two choices: accepting to marry him or renounce to marry and close herself in a convent (and she had no intention to do that). Katherine and her supporters disparaged Anne, destroying her reputation when Anne had exactly no other choice than play along with Henry and his plans (the alternative would be the ruin for her and her family).

When was Anne joining a convent raised?
 
Somehow, the idea of Anne only having two choices (King or Convent) overlooks her intelligence. She did lack wisdom, but that comes with experience. She'd seen how Henry treated her sister, saw how he was treating his wife, and agreed to participate in the unquestionable re-creation of the scenario of what Henry claimed to be the bane and punishment of his marriage to his brother's wife (and ignoring the equally valid verse in another book of the Bible which actually fitted the scenario Henry and Katherine were in) and still claims innocence. No, doesn't wash. She was ambitious (with Thomas Boleyn as a father, I'm surprised even one of their children turned out to be easy-going), she knew where it was headed (she'd just gotten back from the French court, dammit) and still did it. Katherine didn't know about Mary, except perhaps as a rumor; Anne ACTED like a mistress. She DID put herself out of Henry's reach more than once, leaving court. So, she wanted the court life and decided to usurp her better as a way to get it. She was also a reformist and pushed that onto Henry as the means to justify the end. You know, the longer I write about it, the less I like Anne Boleyn.

She is definitely going to Ireland here.
 
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