The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine

[desmirelle]

February 1511.

First, credit where credit is due (even if no one recognizes it).
Rose (Rhosyn verch Dafydd), the 14 year old Welsh niece of the emergency wetnurse (the first developed a fever ten days into duty), was used to watching babies. She didn't want any; having a mother who'd delivered 12 children after her (11 still living) and being a major caretaker for the younger ones made her yearn for a convert. But they didn't have the funds for that dowry, either. So, with another mouth on the way, Rose was sent to her aunt Gwenda (who had wed an Englishman) and found herself in the employ of the Royal nursery as a night rocker. She thought the infant wasn't breathing right the evening of the 22nd, picked him up while fellow rocker Bess snored in the chair next to the crib and proceeded to walk the sleeping baby around the room. Her rescue was never recognized, not even by her aunt. However, Rose did get her wish: Queen Katherine, upon learning of the girl's wish, convinced her husband a year later to pay the dowry for the somber-minded girl.

 

[RedKing]

Interesting, hopefully Katherine gets a happier ending then in OTL. Watched.

 

[VVD0D95]

This will be intriguing. Watched.

 

[desmirelle]

Until Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall (called Hal by his father and reluctantly by his mother) is more "interesting", I'll probably introduce the children like this one and also events needed to know (for example: when Hal becomes Prince of Wales).

 

[Deleted member 147978]

Is this TL about all of Henry and Catalina's children surviving?

 

[desmirelle]

Is this TL about all of Henry and Catalina's children surviving?

Not really, the first pregnancy went as per OTL, so ALL is already impossible. However, I'm having one more son and Mary surviving infancy and into adolescence. So, this ATL is about half of Katherine's pregnancy going the way she and H8 wanted.

I am thinking of two pregnancies after Mary, one being successful. (H8 going to his wife more often in hopes of more ankle-biters is why.) If I decide that, it will be another boy (blame the gaming dice). I'm not rolling for two pregnancies post-Mary, want to go with opinions. (The gender is non-negotiable since I've already rolled it.) Why I rolled for gender before a second pregnancy I'm blaming on my migraine meds. I was writing out possibilities and it just made sense under the meds. (Unfortunately, I fall into the category of 'preventive drugs don't work' when it comes to migraines and have to take 'fuzzy-making meds'. Sigh.) I am going to wait until the opinions come in before I make a final decision.

The rolling for the name of the future Duke of York is completed. He will be John for Katherine's late brother. When I rolled Arthur got NO rolls, Edward was right ahead of Arthur. The alternate name for John would have been George. (A name I cannot take credit for adding to the list. @FalconHonour gets that cred.)

So....third son or no?

 

[Cate13]

So....third son or no?

It depends on how you have the successful pregnancies effect Catherine’s fasting. I’m of the opinion that her fasting is at least a major contributor to her miscarriages. So if her son living (and then Mary and a second son) causes her to cut back since she doesn’t “need” it, I’d say go for a third son. But if she doubles down on fasting because now she knows it “works” no third son.

 

[desmirelle]

I agree with @Cate13 - Katherine's fasting did affect her health. Henry VII leaving her to live in poverty didn't help, either. Katherine would have been better off health-wise if Isabella had had the sense to bring her back instead of leaving her youngest in England as a widow.

She won't have the time for 'personal' fasting; only the Church required fasting here.

 

[desmirelle]

1513 was a busy, busy year. Henry VIII had committed to helping the cause against France, eager to prove himself a warrior king. In February, Katherine missed her courses and by March was sure she was pregnant once more. At the end of April, Henry cleared the tower (Edmund de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk was the blockage.) May found preparations and transport to France (the king himself arrived in France at the end of June). Before Henry left for France, he granted Katherine her request on the pregnancy: provided it sounded English, she could name the child she carried.

True to the Auld Alliance, James IV sent both King Henry VIII and Queen Katherine in their respective residences notification that Henry should come home because James was declaring war. But Henry had left the Earl of Surrey behind to handle the not truly unexpected challenge from Scotland. Katherine secretly enjoyed the opportunity to follow in her mother's footsteps, exhorting the troops while heavily pregnant in August. September brought success at Flodden and she sent James' bloodied coat to her husband before leaving a regency council in charge and withdrawing late in the month for her confinement.

She still received news, though, and learned of Henry's successful siege of Tournai. On October 8th, before Henry arrived home to England, she gave birth to a second son, John (for her late brother). Where his brother Hal had been a sturdy baby with sparse dark hair, John was a thinner, almost skinny baby with a head full of red hair. He was also a louder baby than his brother. Like his father, he was quick to let everyone know when he was unhappy for whatever reason. Katherine had no doubt that her boys were night and day in temperament.

 

[desmirelle]

Still open for thoughts on a second pregnancy post Mary and a third son.

 

[Jonathan]

Still open for thoughts on a second pregnancy post Mary and a third son.

After three healthy births Henry, John and Mary, a fourth pregnancy isn’t completely out of the question and could be used to stop anymore pregnancies, possibly the last birth caused a heavy bleed that although didn’t kill Catherine made her sterile.

Wether a third son is born or wether another young Princess is born is all down to chance.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

Still open for thoughts on a second pregnancy post Mary and a third son.

Henry VIII has Hal and John right? I wouldn't mind him having a third son.

 

[desmirelle]

Wether a third son is born or wether another young Princess is born is all down to chance.

Actually, with me, it's down to gaming dice.😉

And Katherine OTL had six pregnancies, most ending around eight months. I'm proposing a seventh and a third son from it.

 

[desmirelle]

Since we've just gotten through 1513 and Mary is three years off, I'm wondering if she's going to be Mary (for the Blessed Virgin) or something else .

 

[RedKing]

James was quite nice to give the English a heads up that he was invading.

 

[FalconHonour]

Since we've just gotten through 1513 and Mary is three years off, I'm wondering if she's going to be Mary (for the Blessed Virgin) or something else .

Mary wasn't named for the Virgin. That was her aunt. She was named for Mary, Duchess of Suffolk - who may not marry Brandon at all TTL, of course.

But if you're looking for more names to roll, Elizabeth has to be up there, as does Katherine. Cecily, Anne, Bridget, Blanche, Joanna and Philippa are also possibilities. Possibly Margaret, but I don't see Henry naming his daughter for the Queen of the King who has just invaded, even if she is his sister.

 

[desmirelle]

@FalconHonour, I think on Henry's side, you're definitely correct. However, for the uber-religious Katherine, who has had four unsuccessful pregnancies, made pilgrimages for a successful end of a pregnancy and with a Marian feast day in the month, I believe Katherine was thinking the Blessed Virgin. So, let's agree to disagree on this.

No, Henry won't name his daughter Margaret. I'll put the names down (I've got both Elizabeth and Isabella - yes, I know they're basically the same name, but with the differing nicknames, they are very different in life.)

 

[LadyPseudonym]

If Isabella and Elizabeth are basically the same name, which one do you use for an English Princess, daughter of KOA and Henry VIII? Elizabeth after Henry's mother? Isabel after KOA's mother? Both names were used in England, and I'm not even going to get into the Isabelle/Isabella/Elisabeth names in France, which just confuse me more...

 

[HortenseMancini]

If Isabella and Elizabeth are basically the same name, which one do you use for an English Princess, daughter of KOA and Henry VIII? Elizabeth after Henry's mother? Isabel after KOA's mother? Both names were used in England, and I'm not even going to get into the Isabelle/Isabella/Elisabeth names in France, which just confuse me more...

I used elizabeth in my own tl...it seems to have been more common in england than isabel/isabella.

 

[desmirelle]

As the owner of more baby name books than I care to count: yes, Isabella is a variant of Elizabeth. Isabella is Katherine's mom and Elizabeth is Henry's. And I don't know why anybody is upset by the fact I pointed it out. Yes, Elizabeth is more common than Isabella in England. I'll gather names and roll when I get to 1516.