The Heir of Anjou: King Arthur's Reign [Angevin Empire TL]

[CaptainShadow]

I personally don't think she really preferred Otto but she strongly disliked Constance and would rather have Otto, brought up at the Angevin court, become king rather than Arthur, whose mother loathed the Angevins. Also, as Richard's mother, she played a role politics whereas if Arthur succeeded, she'd soon be pushed into the background with Constance taking her place.

Ahh ok.

 

[iMercadier]

Does Richard still die the same way as in OTL?

He does.

 

[kasumigenx]

Ahh ok.

I think Arthur could marry a younger sister of Berengaria and Blanche, who shares the same name as his mother since she might have a lesser age gap with him.

 

[CaptainShadow]

I have little knowledge of this period, but are there any Scottish matches available? If so, I suggest you go that way, and get a claim to Scotland.

 

[The Professor]

I read it in a book by Eric Borgnis-Desbordes, Constance de Bretagne (1161-1201) : Une duchesse face à Richard Cœur de Lion et Jean sans Terre. I'll try to find the exact passage if you like. According to the author, Richard was trying to delay the moment he'd have to officially name a successor - he couldn't know he'd die so soon - as he had limited confidence in both Constance and John. Naming Otto Count of Poitou was just a way to tell them (more likely Constance who had just refused to send Arthur to is court) that they couldn't take the succession for granted

Found the source. I translate it below:
Eric Borgnis-Desbordes, Constance de Bretagne (1161-1201) : Une duchesse face à Richard Cœur de Lion et Jean sans Terre, p. 373:
"The same year [1198], Richard showed once again how secondary the question of his succession at the head of his empire was in comparison to his struggle against Philip Augustus. His nephew Otto of Brunswick (son of his sister Matilda married to Henry the Lion) had been envisaged to succeed him in the empire. Eleanor of Aquitaine especially preferred him to Arthur of Brittany. [29] Otto had the advantage of having spent most of his youth at the Angevin court and had been made Count of Poitou in 1196, precisely the year of the Breton revolt. [30] Did Richard want to show the duchess that he had a backup plan to the detriment of Arthur regarding his succession and that Constance would better submit to preserve her son’s chances?
"[29] Richard had offered Otto to marry Margaret of Scotland, daughter of William the Lion and heiress to the throne, as early as 1195 and the same year, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Justiciar of the Kingdom, had proceeded to the young people’s betrothal. Eleanor had even chosen to renounce her titles in Otto’s favour, the latter appearing as Richard’s new choice, influenced by his mother. In these conditions, it is easier to understand Constance’s wariness at the idea of entrusting her son to him: in 1196, Otto calls himself Count of Poitou and Duke of Aquitaine. However, his marriage with Margaret of Scotland could not take place because of the Socttish nobility’s opposition.
"[30] This choice could also be evidence of Eleanor’s distrust towards John as Richard’s potential successor (cf. Jean-Philippe COLLET, Les vicomtes de Thouars in “Noblesses de l’espace Plantagenêt (154-1224)”, CCM, 2001, p. 156)."

Note I wasn't disputing the comital title.
But it's interesting that Otto apparently didn't contest John's use of the ducal title after Richard and Arthur died. I would have thought he at least would have required it for the alliance against Phillip or claimed it when John died.

 

[iMercadier]

Regardless of what the Lionheart gave to Otto, Arthur won't be giving away Aquitaine to anybody via marriage. That's not to say he won't grant it to his heir, second or third sons under his suzerainty, though.

 

[kasumigenx]

Whatever Richard gave to Otto, Arthur won't be giving away Aquitaine and Poitou. Not via marriage at least, maybe to a son.

He does not have a right since Eleanor of Aquitaine is still alive, she could have it be succeeded by somebody else.

 

[Brita]

From what Borgnis-Desbordes says in his book, Otto had to renounce it when he was elected King of the Romans. As a candidate to HRE, Otto could not pretendto the English crown. Richard seems to have agreed at the time for political reasons (alliance with several Dutch nobles and Baldwin IX and VI of Flanders and Hainaut against Philip Augustus). Maybe he'd never really considered Otto's succession likely - especially with John.

 

[CaptainShadow]

He does not have a right since Eleanor of Aquitaine is still alive, she could have it be succeeded by somebody else.

Not necessarily, Richard became duke, and was succeeded by his nephew, it's upto him (Richard) on who succeeds him as duke of Aquitaine after he dies.

 

[The Professor]

From what Borgnis-Desbordes says in his book, Otto had to renounce it when he was elected King of the Romans. As a candidate to HRE, Otto could not pretendto the English crown. Richard seems to have agreed at the time for political reasons (alliance with several Dutch nobles and Baldwin IX and VI of Flanders and Hainaut against Philip Augustus). Maybe he'd never really considered Otto's succession likely - especially with John.

Except Duchy of Aquitaine =/= English Crown. As a vassal to the King of the West Franks it's not even part of the Kingdom of England

Not necessarily, Richard became duke, and was succeeded by his nephew, it's upto him (Richard) on who succeeds him as duke of Aquitaine after he dies.

Pretty much, Eleanor abdicated her claim unto Richard.

 

[Brita]

Except Duchy of Aquitaine =/= English Crown. As a vassal to the King of the West Franks it's not even part of the Kingdom of England

This is true, but I'm not sure Richard wanted to separate Aquitaine from the rest of his empire.

 

[The Professor]

This is true, but I'm not sure Richard wanted to separate Aquitaine from the rest of his empire.

That makes zero difference to the HRE!