Now, the Thirty Years War began as a conflict over Catholicism and Protestantism, but grew on to result in the all but dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire as a political entity, completeing a process that had begun centuries before. Now, one thing thrown out there on discussions of the War is that the Hapsburg dynasty had wanted to recreate the HRE into a more unified body, led by them of course. However, this seems like it would be rather difficult even with a major victory. Now, what if the Hapsburgs had managed to make a large victory against the German states, perhaps with one of the other powers distracted by something else (can we provoke a Franco-British War?). What kind of changes would we see in Germany?
The Hapsburgs Win The Thirty Years War
- Thread starter Nicole
- Start date
I'm kidding of corse...WI Richelieu is deposed and France is less aggresive against catholic powers due to internal disorder...
Max Sinister
Banned
But who should do that? That'd be political suicide to strike against Richelieu - either you fail and are lost, or you succeed and hurt France, since Richelieu was almost running the country single-handedly. That'd be like killing Wallenstein in Germany... oh.
Gladi said:
But Richelieu was mentally sane contrary to Wallenstein, who suffered from syphilis in the last stage. If Wallenstein had been sane, maybe he never had tried to make his own plans, and hadn't been killed by imperial officers. Wallenstein was a great general with an enormous wealth, if he had lived on, this would have been a major advantage for the Habsburgs.
POD 1590
Mathias marries a german princess who is a secret protestant. They have a son "Franz". Franz embraces the teaching of Luther but remains offically Catholic due to pressures at court. Franz is crowned King of Hungary in 1617 and King of Bohenia in 1618. Upon the death of Mathias Franz is elected Holy Roman Emperor. While in Prague in 1619 Franz anounces his conversion to Lutheranism.
Mathias's brother Ferdinand of Styria siezes Vienna with the support of Catholic nobles and the Spanish. Franz is able to obtain the active support of the Protestant Union and Saxony by ceding parts of Silesia. Tilly is defeated in 1620 and Vienna is liberated. Pope Paul V calls for a crusade against the hertic Franz and the HRE is placed under interdict.
While Spanish troops reinforce Styria and Bavaria the Catholic states within the HRE respond to the pope's call to crusade. France and Venice ignore the pope and Poland has to many problems of it's own to respond.
The catholic ruled states in the northern HRE are quickly overrun. Without reinforcements the Spanish forces in the Netherlands are overcome by 1624 and the Spanish Netherlands is partitioned between France and the United Provinces.
Infuriated by the popes's call to crusade Franz orders the catholic church properties be confiscated. Catholic nobles are required to sign a oath of loyalty or suffer confiscation of lands and property. The pope excomunicates nobles who sign the oath of loyalty.
Bavaria, Austria Styria and Lombardy are the primary areas of fighting.
Sick of the devastation of Bavaria Maximillian by 1632 finds a compliant archbishop and declares the church in the HRE to be independant from Rome and headed by the archbishop of Munich. The peace of Colgone is signed promising amnesty and religious toleration. This benfits Maximillian as catholics in the HRE will now look to Munich instead of Rome for leadership. As part of the treaty of Colgone the rulers of Bavaria, Hungary and the Netherlands are granted the status of prince-electors
Mathias marries a german princess who is a secret protestant. They have a son "Franz". Franz embraces the teaching of Luther but remains offically Catholic due to pressures at court. Franz is crowned King of Hungary in 1617 and King of Bohenia in 1618. Upon the death of Mathias Franz is elected Holy Roman Emperor. While in Prague in 1619 Franz anounces his conversion to Lutheranism.
Mathias's brother Ferdinand of Styria siezes Vienna with the support of Catholic nobles and the Spanish. Franz is able to obtain the active support of the Protestant Union and Saxony by ceding parts of Silesia. Tilly is defeated in 1620 and Vienna is liberated. Pope Paul V calls for a crusade against the hertic Franz and the HRE is placed under interdict.
While Spanish troops reinforce Styria and Bavaria the Catholic states within the HRE respond to the pope's call to crusade. France and Venice ignore the pope and Poland has to many problems of it's own to respond.
The catholic ruled states in the northern HRE are quickly overrun. Without reinforcements the Spanish forces in the Netherlands are overcome by 1624 and the Spanish Netherlands is partitioned between France and the United Provinces.
Infuriated by the popes's call to crusade Franz orders the catholic church properties be confiscated. Catholic nobles are required to sign a oath of loyalty or suffer confiscation of lands and property. The pope excomunicates nobles who sign the oath of loyalty.
Bavaria, Austria Styria and Lombardy are the primary areas of fighting.
Sick of the devastation of Bavaria Maximillian by 1632 finds a compliant archbishop and declares the church in the HRE to be independant from Rome and headed by the archbishop of Munich. The peace of Colgone is signed promising amnesty and religious toleration. This benfits Maximillian as catholics in the HRE will now look to Munich instead of Rome for leadership. As part of the treaty of Colgone the rulers of Bavaria, Hungary and the Netherlands are granted the status of prince-electors
Franz, a Hapsburg, son of Mathias is HRE, King of Bavaria, Hungary, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Stytia and has the united support of the HRE. I would consider that a win. Without the Protestant vs Church of Rome issue the Hapsburgs are likely to remain dominant within the HRE.
If by Hapsburgs win you mean Philip of Spain and Ferdinand of Styria that is another story. A problem with Phillip and Ferdinand is they were religious fanactics who engaged in a murderous policy of ethnic cleansing on a scale not repeated in Europe for over 300 years.
If by Hapsburgs win you mean Philip of Spain and Ferdinand of Styria that is another story. A problem with Phillip and Ferdinand is they were religious fanactics who engaged in a murderous policy of ethnic cleansing on a scale not repeated in Europe for over 300 years.
Politic of ethnic cleansing? Are you kidding? It was a terrible war in which Spanish, Austrians, Swedes, Germans and French did terrible things, but ethnic cleansing?
Max Sinister
Banned
It wasn't what we'd call ethnic cleaning today, but it was bad enough. Villages were plundered dozens of times by the soldiers, Germany's population fell to two thirds (in some areas even to a fifth!) of the pre-war population. It's said that Germany took a century until it had recovered.
If the Hapsburgs won, they would have consolidated their hold in several regions: Burgundy/Netherlands, Austria, and the German Empire (through the Emperor). This means that France would be surrounded by its biggest rival, leading to a major war between them and the Hapsburgs. The prestige France saw under Louis XIV would never come about, instead it would see a long and costly war to determine who was the major power in Europe...
Susano
Banned
Hm. Habsburg could take on the protestant opposition, and maybe even protestant opposition+sweden. It is France which neeeds to be kept out at all costs. Could maybe a dynastcial struggle or so ensure in France at a convinient time? That could solve that.
Additionally, of coruse, indeed Protestant Habsburg. But for that to work, Habsburg needs to never get Spain, because the spanish nobles wouldnt allow that. So, if we assume an imperial, but spain-less Habsburg, then maybe Luthers religion could even be made a National Church, which could serve to strengthen the Emperors 8and thus Habsburgs) hold on the HREGN... of course, probably that would mean no 30 Years War at all, if at it stays as a simple Bohemian revolt or so.
Additionally, of coruse, indeed Protestant Habsburg. But for that to work, Habsburg needs to never get Spain, because the spanish nobles wouldnt allow that. So, if we assume an imperial, but spain-less Habsburg, then maybe Luthers religion could even be made a National Church, which could serve to strengthen the Emperors 8and thus Habsburgs) hold on the HREGN... of course, probably that would mean no 30 Years War at all, if at it stays as a simple Bohemian revolt or so.
Richelieu was efficient but unpopular among the nobility. Louis XIII disliked him but knew better than revoking him.
In 1630, however, Marie de Medicis and Gaston d'Orleans came very close to obtaining his dismissal (the day of dupes). They might have succeeded. Marie of Medicis was a staunch catholic and pro-hapsburg,if she had had more influence, she might have kept France out of the war (a pretty bad move on the long run, but countries sometimes act against their best interest)
In 1630, however, Marie de Medicis and Gaston d'Orleans came very close to obtaining his dismissal (the day of dupes). They might have succeeded. Marie of Medicis was a staunch catholic and pro-hapsburg,if she had had more influence, she might have kept France out of the war (a pretty bad move on the long run, but countries sometimes act against their best interest)