The Hanseatic League

I'm kind of obsessed with the Hanseatic League, I have no idea why. It's certainly interesting how many cities joined it, and how much clout it had in the 14th century -- I mean, they waged war against Denmark and managed to extract concessions, and had Kontors in places such as London, Novgorod, Bergen, and Brugge.

However, they quickly declined in the 15th and 16th centuries and never recovered. Is there anyway for the Hanseatic League to experience a 'revival' of sorts? I know the Dutch really hurt them when they got involved in the Baltic trade. In my own TL, Germany is on a road where the empire will be more unified. It's not going to become a singular state overnight, and encompasses a wide area, but it's on the way. Is there any way that a centralizing empire might find a use for the Hanseatic League in terms of trade and the economy? Many of the Hansestadt where already Imperial Free Cities and would be represented in the Reichstag. For some reason, the idea of Hanse ships sailing west for the Emperor sound incredibly inciting :D ... and American and indeed, Asiatic trade might be just what they need to revive.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
You really need to give them control over Copenhagen and Elsinore, and keep the Danish from develop a strong navy (and the only way you can do that are by killing of Denmark). My suggestion are that you make Count Gerhard III of Holstein more interested in long term control over Jutland and Fuen so we avoid the rebellion against him and his murder. Denmark are split up in a indepedent Schleswig under Valdemar (III) Jutland and Fuen under Gephard, while at first Count John III of Holstein-Plön get Zealand, Lolland-Falster and Scancia. John whom was heavy in debt slowly lose some of his domain to his creditor, and Falsterbo become a Hansestadt in his reign, while the Bishopric of Roskilde gives up Copenhagen which too become a Hansestadt.
 
Can you really get the Hanseatic League to be a viable entity, though? ISTM that it was always more of an alliance, a la NATO, rather than a state.
 
Can you really get the Hanseatic League to be a viable entity, though? ISTM that it was always more of an alliance, a la NATO, rather than a state.

Agreed. I'm not really looking to make the Hanseatic League into a viable state, but evolving from the medieval trade league which it was, into something more modern, such a trade company (ala the East India Companies) or something of the sort. In the 14th century the mayors of the various Hanseatic Cities often met in Lubeck to decide policy, but it wasn't binding; the Hanseatic Cities didn't have to follow their demands or anything.

You really need to give them control over Copenhagen and Elsinore, and keep the Danish from develop a strong navy (and the only way you can do that are by killing of Denmark). My suggestion are that you make Count Gerhard III of Holstein more interested in long term control over Jutland and Fuen so we avoid the rebellion against him and his murder. Denmark are split up in a indepedent Schleswig under Valdemar (III) Jutland and Fuen under Gephard, while at first Count John III of Holstein-Plön get Zealand, Lolland-Falster and Scancia. John whom was heavy in debt slowly lose some of his domain to his creditor, and Falsterbo become a Hansestadt in his reign, while the Bishopric of Roskilde gives up Copenhagen which too become a Hansestadt.

A good idea, but a little too late for my timeline, which takes off in the 16th century. I considered messing with Denmark a little through, by perhaps allowing Christian II to keep his throne, but the mess he made may make that impossible. Is it too late to salvage something out of the Hanse at this point?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Can you really get the Hanseatic League to be a viable entity, though? ISTM that it was always more of an alliance, a la NATO, rather than a state.

In many way so was Netherland, what they need are a incentiment to unite, a strong external enemy and a defensible position, which was why I suggested that they gained Copenhagen, it easy defendable from a enemies, it control a important trade route and the land arounmd it can feed them, plus any Danish state will when it try to strengthen itself build up a strong navy and try to gain control of the Baltic trade (which is why we need to kill of Denmark to make the Hanse survive), and the Hanse can never compete with the bigger European nations in army size, so they need naval dominance.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Agreed. I'm not really looking to make the Hanseatic League into a viable state, but evolving from the medieval trade league which it was, into something more modern, such a trade company (ala the East India Companies) or something of the sort. In the 14th century the mayors of the various Hanseatic Cities often met in Lubeck to decide policy, but it wasn't binding; the Hanseatic Cities didn't have to follow their demands or anything.



A good idea, but a little too late for my timeline, which takes off in the 16th century. I considered messing with Denmark a little through, by perhaps allowing Christian II to keep his throne, but the mess he made may make that impossible. Is it too late to salvage something out of the Hanse at this point?

Mostly yes, the Hanse was still important at that time, but it was on it way down, it can simply not compete with bigger and stronger states. If you want to save them at that date you need to radical change the Hanse and make them take over some bigger territorial states. My suggestion would be that Hamburg and Bremen some way succed in getting the power to elect the Lutheran Adminstrator of Bishopric of Bremen, while Lübeck succed in the same way with Bishopric of Lübeck which would give them some territories, and if maybe a conquest (or finding some way to make it join) of Dithmarschen (which was more or less a peasant republic) and County of Pinneberg. Which would give Hanse a medium sized state in Hamburg area, with some chaos in Denmark (maybe a long civil war between Frederil and Christian) maybe they could gain control of some of Holstein.
 
In many way so was Netherland, what they need are a incentiment to unite, a strong external enemy and a defensible position, which was why I suggested that they gained Copenhagen, it easy defendable from a enemies, it control a important trade route and the land arounmd it can feed them, plus any Danish state will when it try to strengthen itself build up a strong navy and try to gain control of the Baltic trade (which is why we need to kill of Denmark to make the Hanse survive), and the Hanse can never compete with the bigger European nations in army size, so they need naval dominance.


I suppose my thing is I always envisage the League as an appendage to a more powerful Empire, perhaps something arising out of Imperial reform efforts in the late 15th, early 16th century?

Then, of course, there was the Baltic Design...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I suppose my thing is I always envisage the League as an appendage to a more powerful Empire, perhaps something arising out of Imperial reform efforts in the late 15th, early 16th century?

I would say it was the other way around the Hanse grew to power because of weakness of central autorities and the fact that the regional autorities wasn't strong enough to threaten them, when the North German prince grew strong enough the Hanse was left in political importence, much of that was also the change in raising armies from mercenaries to draft peasants. Honestly there are only two model for long term suvival for the Hanse Netherland and Swizterland.

Then, of course, there was the Baltic Design...

I don't get what you mean, would you explain it?
 
Mostly yes, the Hanse was still important at that time, but it was on it way down, it can simply not compete with bigger and stronger states. If you want to save them at that date you need to radical change the Hanse and make them take over some bigger territorial states. My suggestion would be that Hamburg and Bremen some way succed in getting the power to elect the Lutheran Adminstrator of Bishopric of Bremen, while Lübeck succed in the same way with Bishopric of Lübeck which would give them some territories, and if maybe a conquest (or finding some way to make it join) of Dithmarschen (which was more or less a peasant republic) and County of Pinneberg. Which would give Hanse a medium sized state in Hamburg area, with some chaos in Denmark (maybe a long civil war between Frederil and Christian) maybe they could gain control of some of Holstein.

Yeah, it was mostly the rise of strong territorial powers (such as Denmark, for example) that helped kill the League, wasn't it? With the Empire on the road to becoming a more centralized state, I definately see Emperor Philip (OTL Philip the handsome) taking an interest in the Hanse. One of the main things Philip manages to push through is a suppression of many small church lands throughout the empire--mostly Prince-Abbacys, but I could see some Bishoprics losing their land. This reform is mostly made to favor the Ritters and Landless nobility, irregardless of religion, but maybe some of the Patricians of these Northern Hanse cities can buy up these now vacant lands as well? Or perhaps even the cities themselves? Especially in the north, were the Lutheran movement gained a lot of popularity, we could see a lot of the Bishoprics, Prince-Abbacys, and church lands quickly secularized, especially if there exists a mandate to do so.
 
With the Empire on the road to becoming a more centralized state, I definately see Emperor Philip (OTL Philip the handsome) taking an interest in the Hanse

Who are you thinking of here?

I would say it was the other way around the Hanse grew to power because of weakness of central autorities and the fact that the regional autorities wasn't strong enough to threaten them, when the North German prince grew strong enough the Hanse was left in political importence, much of that was also the change in raising armies from mercenaries to draft peasants. Honestly there are only two model for long term suvival for the Hanse Netherland and Swizterland.

Hmm. Fair point. But note that the Swiss and Dutch had both begun under a foreign ruler (or at least one ruler).

I don't get what you mean, would you explain it?


By 1627, Danish intervention in the war had become a disaster, as Habsburg troops overran Holstein and Jutland itself. Protestant forces in Lower Saxony had collapsed, and the Danish Council of State was willing to make peace at any price. This would have, of course, been disastrous for the Protestant cause.

By now the emperor, and through him Wallenstein, had set his sights on a more valuable prize: the Baltic itself. Both branches of the Habsburg dynasty, the Spanish as well as the Austrian, had been contemplating the possibility of establishing a naval presence along the Baltic’s German shore. Once Imperial and League forces conquered Denmark’s possessions in Lower Saxony, and took control over Christian’s former ally Mecklenburg, this so-called ‘Baltic design’ took form. Construction of an Imperial fleet began at Wismar, Greifswald, Rostock, and even in the Jutish port of Ålborg at the end of 1627. This was no trivial enterprise: together, these shipyards could assemble a considerable fleeet in a very short time. Combined with the Polish fleet and Habsburg naval forces from Dunkirk, the Imperial navy in the Baltic would constitute a real challenge to the Denmark, Sweden, the States General, and England." Denmark, 1513-1660: the rise and decline of a Renaissance monarchy‎

I'm thinking of something along these lines as the successor to the Stresemannverse, actually, because I know how people hate the Habsburgs.
 
Who are you thinking of here?

The son of Maximilian I, who had married Joanna of Aragon. He was King of Spain for a short time IOTL, until he died of cholera in 1506. My main PoD of my TL includes Miguel da Paz surviving as a child -- as such, Philip never gains the Spanish Inheritance and remains in the Lowlands, succeeding his father as Emperor in 1519.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, see it like that: While the Hansa was powerful in the middle ages, it was only the majority of traders from one single country (indeed it was the German Hansa, with Hansa being a general term for a group of people), and being in an incoherent alliance, badly organised at that. So of course once other countries extended their trade routes the Hansa would. So while this or that can go better for the Hansa to survive as dominant trade league in the long term...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Who are you thinking of here?



Hmm. Fair point. But note that the Swiss and Dutch had both begun under a foreign ruler (or at least one ruler).




By 1627, Danish intervention in the war had become a disaster, as Habsburg troops overran Holstein and Jutland itself. Protestant forces in Lower Saxony had collapsed, and the Danish Council of State was willing to make peace at any price. This would have, of course, been disastrous for the Protestant cause.

By now the emperor, and through him Wallenstein, had set his sights on a more valuable prize: the Baltic itself. Both branches of the Habsburg dynasty, the Spanish as well as the Austrian, had been contemplating the possibility of establishing a naval presence along the Baltic’s German shore. Once Imperial and League forces conquered Denmark’s possessions in Lower Saxony, and took control over Christian’s former ally Mecklenburg, this so-called ‘Baltic design’ took form. Construction of an Imperial fleet began at Wismar, Greifswald, Rostock, and even in the Jutish port of Ålborg at the end of 1627. This was no trivial enterprise: together, these shipyards could assemble a considerable fleeet in a very short time. Combined with the Polish fleet and Habsburg naval forces from Dunkirk, the Imperial navy in the Baltic would constitute a real challenge to the Denmark, Sweden, the States General, and England." Denmark, 1513-1660: the rise and decline of a Renaissance monarchy‎

I'm thinking of something along these lines as the successor to the Stresemannverse, actually, because I know how people hate the Habsburgs.

I like the idea, it shows enoumous potential, through one weakness would be lack of know how (not in building them but in naval combat), Denmark had a large and proffesionel naval academy, which produced some of the best naval officers, it would be hard to compete with, especially because naval battles in the shallow waters of the Baltic are a lot different on the open sea, through Peter the Great showed that it wasn't impossible.
 
The curious thing about the descent of the H.L. is that its members did not really lose much; on the contrary, most Hansa cities went on accruing wealth.
They only obtained strong rivals like the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden, and later England. So while they gained ever more trade volume, they lost market share and hence political power.

So the two main factors marginalizing the H.L. were the improved organization and thus rising power of states like Denmark, England, and Sweden; and the discovery of the Americas which increased the market volume of sea trade without a share for good ol' Hansa. So an obvious way of empowering Hansa would be let them take part in the trade with the new world. It is, however, doubtful how and why they would get the rights to do so from a genuine colonial power; I think it would be too much of a stretch to let the found colonies from scratch - the Hansa cities had much less rural manpower backup than the Dutch port cities. What about Portugal relying on Hanseatic naval support for not having the necessary ressources (e.g. due to a conflict with Castilia)?



As a comletely different scenario, let's think of the the Baltic coast in the age of reformation. Although most Hansa cities were early in converting to the new denominations, the secularization of the state of the Teutonic order was a serious blow to them. What about making Prussia a "colony" under joint administration of the Hansa cities (like a "common bailwick", as the Swiss would have called it)?
This is going to take some, um, efforts in dealing with Poland, whose attention, however, might be absorbed elsewhere ...
In general, a large base of ports around the Baltic is still a powerhouse in the 17th century.


And this leads us the the third main obstacle to Hansa continuation: In political terms, it was a very conservative association. While they put new naval technologies and commercial strategies into practice early (at least in earlier centuries), they certainly did not fantasize as much as we do in this thread by far. So in any case, you might need to change the political culture and the attitude towards the League and the world outside at least in some of the main member cities ...



(And btw, I think that the comparison to a military alliance like NATO is misleading, in spite of wars waged in the name of the H.L. The main purpose of it was always commercial in nature.)


While we now have compiled many suggestions as to how to maintain or expand the status of the Hansa from its peak of power onwards, it also seems interesting to me how it could still change tack and be revived in its later period (I guess that's the right metaphor for the Hansa?). I think that was part of the main question of this thread.

While the H.L. was not a decisive factor in the 16th century any more,
its actual deathblow came with the Thirty Years War. The defeat of Magdeburg as one of the major inland Hansa cities in contrast to the exploding population and wealth of Hamburg could not vindicate any linkage afterwards. Moreover, the Swedish (and later Brandenburgian) possession on both North Sea and Baltic coast blocked the chance for coordinated German trade (or even more, colonization).

What about the Hansa taking a stance in the Thirty Years War?
Against the Imperial Edict of Restitution, but also against Sweden and Denmark, neutral to the Netherlands - that would make a nice "Third Party" position for the Hanseatic League (think of an early Union of Leipzig). They would, of course, be in a lot of trouble without support from larger Protestant states (Saxony, Brandenburg, Lüneburg/Hannover).
This could as well endager the Hansa cities a lot and put an even more painful end to the H.L. Hanseatic success in this scenario would imply that Magdeburg is liberated in the late 1620s, which is improbable in oppostion to the Emperor (as well as Denmark, for that matter). It is also hard to imagine an Imperial-Hanseatic cooperation against Denmark (and the Netherlands!!?), as this would require to abandon a lot of restitution claims from counter-reformist side. But finding an ally against both the Danish intruder as well as the Dutch separatists may seem attractive to the Habsburgs ...
and I think, sufficiently attractive to negotiate terms about Protestant states. However, Bavaria would not like it and try to undermine that strategy (as would France, but France is not yet capable of exterior actions in the 1620s) ...


In my own TL, Germany is on a road where the empire will be more unified. It's not going to become a singular state overnight, and encompasses a wide area, but it's on the way. Is there any way that a centralizing empire might find a use for the Hanseatic League in terms of trade and the economy? Many of the Hansestadt where already Imperial Free Cities and would be represented in the Reichstag. For some reason, the idea of Hanse ships sailing west for the Emperor sound incredibly inciting :D ... and American and indeed, Asiatic trade might be just what they need to revive.


The H.L. was an alliance between free cities and not free cities in the Empire, so I think for an effective League, you will need a weak central authority in the Empire. True, for the not-so-free cities, weaker central authority in the individual states of the Empire might also help.

The Hansa as a whole mandated with colonial, or at least intercontintal trade tasks by the Emperor seems like a good idea. However, I it is much easier for me to imagine this scenario if the Emperor acts only as Austrian Archduke (and European magnate).
A joint action of this sort by the whole of Germany is hardly possible.
Emperors like Charles V. and his successor would, however, be smart enough to share some of the benfits with the significant electorates and prevent their envy.

This might combine well with my Prussia idea above. The H.L. could then "rehearse" common political and military actions, and then put them into practice on a larger scale ...
 
P.S.: Another reason why I like the "Hansa to America/Asia for the Emperor" idea:
Do you know the Brandenburgian American Society?
It was an attempt by Brandenburg(-Prussia) to become a colonial power, learning from the Dutch example. They were operation from a relatively small port, Emden.

The main reason for the failure (other than late start and too little financial engagement) was the lack of naval and commercial expertise. The Hansa, no doubt, would have done better ...
 
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