The Greater Norman Empire and its successor states.

[MerryPrankster]

Wasn't there a strong pocket of Nestorian Christianity out that way? Any chance of a Nestorian step empire? Would make for an interesting series of church controversies and might change their focus (IE: they might go through Russia into Persia with the ultimate goal of seizing Baghdad and reuniting with their Nestorian bretherin in Mesopotamia). I'm very intrigued by this possibility but I can't remember how strong Nestorianism was on the step.

Some of the Mongol sub-tribes were Christian, as were many of the wives of the Mongols.

Some of the Il-Khans (Mongol rulers of Persia) were Christians in their youth, but became Buddhists or Muslims as adults. Probably the best chance there.

So bring on the Nestorian steppe empire!

Possible theological controversies:

1. How divided are Jesus's humanity and divinity? Did God the Son die on the Cross? Some Nestorians apparently did not believe God the Son did not die, but only Jesus the man.

2. Universalism--many Nestorian theologians were universalistic (Isaac of Nineveh is the only one I can remember).

3. Nestorian steppe people used koumiss instead of wine for Communion. Bet some people are going to be annoyed.

4. Polygamy-Did any Nestorians practice polygamy? I know they didn't in the early days, but some might have picked it up from Muslims.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Wasn't there a strong pocket of Nestorian Christianity out that way? Any chance of a Nestorian step empire? Would make for an interesting series of church controversies and might change their focus (IE: they might go through Russia into Persia with the ultimate goal of seizing Baghdad and reuniting with their Nestorian bretherin in Mesopotamia). I'm very intrigued by this possibility but I can't remember how strong Nestorianism was on the step.

Nestorianism, a.k.a. the Church of the East, indeed was quite strong in Central Asia, and Nestorian communities existed as far away as China and the islands of Socotra and Sri Lanka, and maybe even further away, and I have read articles about remnants that indicated at least the presence of Nestorian missionairies and individuals on Java and the Phillipines, although I'm not

...and by the way, there actually was something like a Nestorian empire on the steppes of Central Asia in OTL; the Khitan Khanate or Kara-Khitan Khanate.

Although it appears that the majority of the Khitan commoners were Buddhists, the Khitan aristocracy seems to have been Christian, and it is beyond any doubt that Nestorian Christianity flourished in the Khitan Khanate.

And the Khitan had also subjugated the Muslim Turkish Kara-Khanids, and they had inflicted a few crushing defeats on the Seljuks in Persia, but they were eventually beaten back (though never conquered) by the Khwarezmians.

..
And if you are going to work with a Khitan or other Nestorian invasion of the Middle East, then another factor that you might want to take in account, is the presence of a very strong Georgian kingdom in the Caucasus during the 13th century.

The Georgians under their king David the Builder managed to defeat a larger Seljuk army in 1121 at the Battle of Didgori, and Georgia remained a powerful Christian state in the region until Tbilisi was taken by the Khwarezmians in 1225. (a footnote to this: in OTL, the Khwarezmian invasion in Seljuk, Armenian and Georgian territories was the result of the Mongol invasion in the Khwarezmian heartland, so without the Mongols, this invasion could be prevented)

A powerful Georgian kingdom could be a useful ally for any invading Nestorian horde or empire...

 

[stevep]

Some of the Mongol sub-tribes were Christian, as were many of the wives of the Mongols.

Some of the Il-Khans (Mongol rulers of Persia) were Christians in their youth, but became Buddhists or Muslims as adults. Probably the best chance there.

So bring on the Nestorian steppe empire!

Possible theological controversies:

1. How divided are Jesus's humanity and divinity? Did God the Son die on the Cross? Some Nestorians apparently did not believe God the Son did not die, but only Jesus the man.

2. Universalism--many Nestorian theologians were universalistic (Isaac of Nineveh is the only one I can remember).

3. Nestorian steppe people used koumiss instead of wine for Communion. Bet some people are going to be annoyed.

4. Polygamy-Did any Nestorians practice polygamy? I know they didn't in the early days, but some might have picked it up from Muslims.

MP & AJ

If I remember right I read that there were about 5-6 big tribes in the region before Genghis united the tribes. The story I read was that the westernmost one was lead by a predominately Nestorian leadership, not sure how far down the influence spread. It was actually an important supported of Genghis while he was still quite weak. However they fell out when he asked for a favoured draughter from the tribes leader as his wife. This was rejected and he later took her after he defeated the tribes in his rise to power. If you have something like that but with Genghis's suite being objected. As part of such a marriage he would obviously come under stronger Nestorian influence.

Coupled with the strong influence from Nestorian and other eastern Christians you could easily have the Mongols very favourable to Christianity and hostile to Islam. Since this would be eastern Christian they probably still wouldn't be very friendly to the Orthodox and Catholics, who has persecuted them in the past but it would make later conversion to Islam more difficult. Another area it might have a significant effect is a predominantly Christian Mongol empire is unlikely to see a figure like Baku convert to Islam, hence the history of Russia might be greatly different. Possibly a strong Nestorian state there?


One other possibly point for a parallel. When the Ill-khans conquered Iran and Iraq and briefly occupied Syria under Hulagu they were strongly influenced by eastern Christianity. Allegedly they often preserved Christian communities when others were slaughtered for resisting the Mongols. Famously Hulagu headed back east on the death of the Great Khan Mangu and the Mongol forces left behind were defeated by the Mamelukes. Allegedly both Hulagu’s favourite wife and Kitboga the leader of the forces left in Syria were eastern Christians. Often wondered if Hulagu had been delayed or had discovered that the election he was heading east for had already occurred how things might have gone?
[FONT=&quot]
Steve[/FONT]

 

[Max Sinister]

Genghis was born 1155, 1162 or 1167. Almost hundred years later. Not possible with a strict chaos theory, but if you're a bit more lenient, it's OK.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Some of the Mongol sub-tribes were Christian, as were many of the wives of the Mongols.

Some of the Il-Khans (Mongol rulers of Persia) were Christians in their youth, but became Buddhists or Muslims as adults. Probably the best chance there.

So bring on the Nestorian steppe empire!

Possible theological controversies:

1. How divided are Jesus's humanity and divinity? Did God the Son die on the Cross? Some Nestorians apparently did not believe God the Son did not die, but only Jesus the man.

Actually, make that all Nestorians; Nestorius and later Babai the Great taught that the human Jesus did suffer and die on the cross, but the incarnate Word (the Divine aspect of Christ) never suffered or died.

Nestorius and especially Babai the Great have always rejected the concept of Theopaschism, the concept that God suffered.

...and the Christology that was made by Babai the Great was accepted as the normative Christology of the Church of the East in the early 7th century, so this particular issue was not a problem anymore in the 11th, 12th anc 13th centuries...

4. Polygamy-Did any Nestorians practice polygamy? I know they didn't in the early days, but some might have picked it up from Muslims.

Well, as far as I know, they didn't.

And I'm pretty sure that the Church of the East did everything it could to prevent its adherants from practicing polygamy.

OTOH, so did the Coptic Church, yet polygamy still remained relatively common among the Ethiopian Christians for a long time...

And I also remember that chronicles of Nestorian monks and priests mentioned (and complained) how some nomadic tribes in Central Asia still widely practiced a number of pagan customs, including things like veneration of the sword.

...and since many pagan tribes in Central Asia weren't unfamiliar with polygamy, it could actually be possible that a number of (at least nominally) Christian nomadic tribes in Central Asia still practiced some form of polygamy...

 

[MerryPrankster]

Ran,

Some of my reading on the Nestorians suggested their Christology wasn't nearly as aberrant as it is often made out to be. The two essences in one person, so to speak.

Of course, I do recall prominent Nestorians denying the death of God, hence the comments about at least some.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Nestorian Turko-Mongol Russia!

In high school, I was working with some people on a "Composite TL" that included that (eventually), but it kind of died.

 

[AJNolte]

Greater Norman Empire... Where did I first heard about that? Maybe in my Interference TL?

Woe: I didn't know anyone else was working on something similar. In fact I just massively skimmd your TL to make sure there weren't too many overt areas of overlap.
BTW: it looks interesting; I'll read the whole thing in greater detail time permiting.

 

[AJNolte]

Hear ye hear ye you happy Nestorians:
So, I'm definitely doing it, but this is not an area where I have a whole lot of knowledge (beyond a christology lecture I had while doing a course over in Oxford on the Council of Ephasus and the whole theotokos/christotokos debate).
My big question for all of you is: how does a Nestorian steppe empire come about as a result of my POD. I've ended up kind of using a modified butterfly effect, in that I've only really been butterflying things which could directly result from the POD. This is not because I necessarily think this is the only way it could happen but it makes it easier for me to keep track of. So I'd appreciate some possibilities on this. I can tell you that the Byzantines will probably be undertaking a serious campaign against the Turks under their much more assertive emperor. But what I'm really looking for is some sort of small change resulting from my POD which can bring this about. Incidentally, I do like the idea of an independent Christian Georgia. However I think that it would probably be a Byzantine ally and I do think there may well be conflict with the Byzantines and the Nestorians
I'll be away from the computer this weekend; updates on 1072 to (hopefully) 1075 on Sunday, and do keep the discussion of the Nestorian Empire going.

 

[MerryPrankster]

If the Byzantines go on the offensive against the Turks and drive them back into Central Asia (or press them so they send guys back home to recruit more Turkish soldiers to help fight the Byzantines), that will disrupt some of the steppe polities enough that the butterflies can work their magic.

 

[stevep]

AJ

Another factor possibly making Christianity more powerful might simply be comparison. If the Greeks are holding out and possibly driving back the Seljuk Turks then rumours of this will make Christianity in any form more favoured and Islam less favoured than our time. Also you might see some Muslim groups in Central Asia seeking revenge or retribution say against local Christians. If in response the Christians produce a great leader who through military or political genius generates a powerful Nestorian state that could be an indirect butterfly from your POD.

Steve

 

[basileus]

Woe: I didn't know anyone else was working on something similar. In fact I just massively skimmd your TL to make sure there weren't too many overt areas of overlap.
BTW: it looks interesting; I'll read the whole thing in greater detail time permiting.

Ok, no hay problema

 

[DuQuense]

View Post
4. Polygamy-Did any Nestorians practice polygamy? I know they didn't in the early days, but some might have picked it up from Muslims.

AFAIK There is nothing in the Koran about Polygamy,
Sociologists point to the Institution of Polygamy [as opposed to occasional multiple marriges] entering the Mid east as a result of Contact with the Eastern/Oriental Cultures, around 900~1200.

Christianity also, doesn't have any prohibition against Polygamy in the Bible.
Remembre that Multiple Marriage in Europe wasn't banned till 1250's, but Europe never had Polygamy as a Institution.

Given your Nestorians are a lot closer to the Oriental Cultures, I would consider it likely that some of then practice it

 

[Max Sinister]

@Duquense: No polygamy in Koran? AFAIK Mohammed allowed it (it was usual in Arabia at his time after all), but restricted the number of wives to four per man, and demanded he'd be able to care for them. It made some sense: If many men died in the initial Islamic wars, they had to care for the widows (and the birth rate).

 

[Ran Exilis]

AFAIK There is nothing in the Koran about Polygamy,
Sociologists point to the Institution of Polygamy [as opposed to occasional multiple marriges] entering the Mid east as a result of Contact with the Eastern/Oriental Cultures, around 900~1200.

Christianity also, doesn't have any prohibition against Polygamy in the Bible.
Remembre that Multiple Marriage in Europe wasn't banned till 1250's, but Europe never had Polygamy as a Institution.

Wether polygamy was a developed institution or not, like Max Sinister already pointed out, Islamic law acknowledges that Muslim men have the right to marry up to four women (provided that they can support that many wives and that they will not prefer or love any of them over the others).

And the Qur'an actually does quite clearly permit polygamy:

Sura 4.3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

..
About polygamy in the Bible; though I've not yet found any texts in it that explicitly condemn polygamy, I'm pretty sure that there are such texts in the Bible. And even if polygamy is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible, the monogamous marriage is clearly used as the standard and only allowed type of marriage in both the Old and the New Testament.

...and then there's also the fact that already in the very early Medieval Ages, the Coptic Church, and especially the Coptic Church in Ethiopia, desperately tried to put an end to the polygamy that was relatively commonly practiced by its wealthier followers, especially the Ethiopian aristocracy.

Given your Nestorians are a lot closer to the Oriental Cultures, I would consider it likely that some of them practice it

I agree with that - like I mentioned before, quite a number of the nomadic tribes that adhered the Church of the East still maintained a lot of their shamanistic customs and beliefs.

And therefore it would also be quite likely that such tribes would continue to practice polygamy.

 

[Max Sinister]

Ephraim Kishon (Israeli humorist) claimed in one of his stories that polygamy in Judaism was forbidden by a medieval rabbi. But I'd have to read that story again to give you the name.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Ran,

Some of my reading on the Nestorians suggested their Christology wasn't nearly as aberrant as it is often made out to be. The two essences in one person, so to speak.

Which is exactly what Babai the Great taught: the two qnome (essences) united but unmingled in one parsopa (person).

However, the same Babai the Great still fiercely opposed the concept of Theopaschism...

Of course, I do recall prominent Nestorians denying the death of God, hence the comments about at least some.

Well, since the works of Babai the Great had such a lasting impact on the Church of the East, especially on this subject (like I said, his Christology was accepted by the Church of the East as a dogma), I figured that his views on the issue of Theopaschism were propably accepted by the rest of the Church of the East as well...

 

[Ran Exilis]

(...) Incidentally, I do like the idea of an independent Christian Georgia. However I think that it would probably be a Byzantine ally and I do think there may well be conflict with the Byzantines and the Nestorians
I'll be away from the computer this weekend; updates on 1072 to (hopefully) 1075 on Sunday, and do keep the discussion of the Nestorian Empire going.

By the way, if you want some interesting and possibly useful information about medieval Georgia and Armenia (especially during Georgia's golden age, a good part of Armenia fell under Georgian rule, while the ruling Bagrationi dynasty of Georgia was of Armenian origin), then I can definitely recommend this site:

www.rbedrosian.com/hsrces.html

 

[AJNolte]

Wether polygamy was a developed institution or not, like Max Sinister already pointed out, Islamic law acknowledges that Muslim men have the right to marry up to four women (provided that they can support that many wives and that they will not prefer or love any of them over the others).

And the Qur'an actually does quite clearly permit polygamy:

Sura 4.3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

..
About polygamy in the Bible; though I've not yet found any texts in it that explicitly condemn polygamy, I'm pretty sure that there are such texts in the Bible. And even if polygamy is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible, the monogamous marriage is clearly used as the standard and only allowed type of marriage in both the Old and the New Testament.

...and then there's also the fact that already in the very early Medieval Ages, the Coptic Church, and especially the Coptic Church in Ethiopia, desperately tried to put an end to the polygamy that was relatively commonly practiced by its wealthier followers, especially the Ethiopian aristocracy.



I agree with that - like I mentioned before, quite a number of the nomadic tribes that adhered the Church of the East still maintained a lot of their shamanistic customs and beliefs.

And therefore it would also be quite likely that such tribes would continue to practice polygamy.

I think the passage in Mark (chapter 10 I believe) about 1 man and one women cleaving together and becoming 1 flesh is probably the best example of a poligomy prohibition in the NT.

 

[AJNolte]

A note on one character.

As he's becoming somewhat important (and will grow moreso as time goes on), here's a quick note on Hildebrand.
One of the effects of the POD I chose was inevitably the survival of some people who did not survive OTL. Most of these would be Saxons of course. But isn't it possible that at least a few of William's troops who died OTL might have survived in this one? Hildebrand is one of these. Yes, I flat out made him up, but I think the principle is sound; one of the soldiers who died at Hastings might, had he lived, continued on to be a scholar, a saint or even a great general. So I guess you could say that he is the projection of a possibility. (Incidentally, Eldred of Tunisia, Ahmed, or Amadeus as he'll be known from here out, and Nills, the haplessly blood-thirsty Dane, are three others. Maria Diogenes, who you'll meet in the next update, is another; OTL Romanus' family doubtless suffered even more unhappy circumstances than ITTL). In the near future, of course, all the characters will be projections of possibilities, but I've somewhat broken with tradition in bringing them to prominence so early.
Anyway, update to come soon.