The Greater German Reich

I'm curious, what if rather then being centered on hate, Germany grew from 1933 under Hitler to a accepting nation of all peoples, doing something like giveing full rights to everyone, regardless of race or religion, how does this effect the world of that timeframe?
 
One of the implausible WIs ever. Under Hitler Germany would never give equal right to everyone. You'd have to get rid of Hitler and have someone else be the ruler of Germany.
 
I'm curious, what if rather then being centered on hate, Germany grew from 1933 under Hitler to a accepting nation of all peoples, doing something like giveing full rights to everyone, regardless of race or religion, how does this effect the world of that timeframe?

But the hate version is so much more fun. Lets have an evil nazi empire!
 
I'm curious, what if rather then being centered on hate, Germany grew from 1933 under Hitler to a accepting nation of all peoples, doing something like giveing full rights to everyone, regardless of race or religion, how does this effect the world of that timeframe?

He wouldn't DoW others or get provocative. Remember, The Nazi Party was based on expanding Germany at the expense of others. If Hitler doesn't have those views anymore, he's probably going to pursue international co-operation, instead of launching a war against the world.

Obviously, there's no idea of Lebensraum at the expense of the Slavic peoples, and probably no desire to attack others. There certainly would be no idea of women sitting at home raising children as second class citizens, or required indoctrination in Education.

Frankly, this Germany strikes me as one that's likely to fare better than OTL--because it will essentially maintain much of the good things of the Weimar Era. There is no Reichstag Fire, no Enabling Act, no blaming Jews for the attack. Hitler probably stands for elections and wins, given that he'd have presided over an improvement in economic conditions.

I guess you'd be looking at a National Socialist party that turns out to be--surprise!--a bunch of moderates. Given their defanged attitudes, I think this leads to some kind of "German New Deal" and economic recovery, as well as Germany reasserting itself to the degree of not paying heavy reparations.

I would predict for Japan to get horribly bogged down in China but not expand the war, and eventually carve off another chunk and let Chiang hold onto the rest--which will probably not be a long term solution, but Japan simply gets war weary from a decades-long crisis in China, and the Army is eventually curbed after it has clearly pushed too far in China. Whether this kind of arrangment is permanent or limited is an excellent question.

Its the Soviet Union that's likely to roll snake eyes in this one. With no or only a minor German Rearmament to speak of, Stalin probably continues his purges and gulag labor projects. Its fun to speak of a Red Alert Scenario, but in reality, Stalin's destroyed the fabric of the Soviet State. Given the Great Terror, the Army Purges, the deliberate starvation of the Ukrainian people--and that there's no reason for it to stop--Stalin will simply destroy the idea of social liberation forever. With a war won against an enemy that is trying to kill his people, Stalin OTL could claim that the sacrifices he had ordered were worthwhile. But ITTL, it would be apparent to all that Stalin has killed 15% of his own people but left them no closer to the ideals that socialism was ever supposed to mean. Propaganda aside, the Soviet People now live in Secret Police hell far worse than the days of the Czar. With no other answer than the State is responsible for this suffering--the only recourse of the state is brute force. And anyone besides Stalin will have to deeply consider whether that's the right thing to do.
 
Lots of good points, although super-duper happy-sunshine Grossdeutschland is, uh, apparently gross. Germany is going to reassert itself to the level of Anschluss with Austria and Danzig, minimum. You don't even need Nazis for that.

Speaking of which, what's the point? Why change Hitler's whole personality into the Semitophilic instrument of peace'n'love when you can far more plausibly save German democracy and put a sane politician in charge?

And also, about the PoD poster, you kind of imply that races and religions didn't have equal rights before 1933. In purely legal terms, I believe they did.

Blue Max: why does Japan do any better in China/Chinese resolve weaken? If anything since sane Germany doesn't want war in Europe, it won't ally with Japan, and so continued German military help will allow the Chinese to hold out better. Or by "chunk" do you mean Manchukuo? That's the eventual settlement I'd imagine. The Japanese get tired, the Chinese get tired, and an agreement is signed which both powers dress up as a victory basically saying "Manchukuo exists, death to the communists, we both won." That. or America and the west tighten the screws until Japan has to back all the way out, which is far from impossible.
 
Blue Max: why does Japan do any better in China/Chinese resolve weaken? If anything since sane Germany doesn't want war in Europe, it won't ally with Japan, and so continued German military help will allow the Chinese to hold out better. Or by "chunk" do you mean Manchukuo? That's the eventual settlement I'd imagine. The Japanese get tired, the Chinese get tired, and an agreement is signed which both powers dress up as a victory basically saying "Manchukuo exists, death to the communists, we both won." That. or America and the west tighten the screws until Japan has to back all the way out, which is far from impossible.

Lest we Forget, it was Japan itself that cut off all negotiations with Chiang, not the other way around. Chiang himself had largely ignored Japanese aggression to deal with Communists. "The Japanese have a skin disease, the Communists a disease of the heart." Given that Japan has essentially taken the entire eastern coastline as well as most of China's major cities, I can see Chiang reluctlanly yielding another round of territorial concession if most of this is returned to him.

In this case, we are looking at Inner Mongolia (Mengugko) emerging as a Japanese State, and probably Beijing and its environs getting carted off as another puppet government. This would probably come after the IJA is humiliated for its failure to win a decisive victory and the US sanctions (and not an Oil Embargo) is really starting to hurt.

The whole "China Incident" simply becomes one more round of Japan grabbing another piece of the country, but at least this time the Japanese Army is humbled enough to allow this peace deal to survive at least a few years. Its very possible that the IJA is back in action in 1950--but at least somewhat possible that the crackdown on the armed forces is able to consolidate the situation in China, instead of wrecking the place.

Chiang, though, would be nearly toppled by this war. This kind of sell out of territory might be the only way he can hope to retain power. On the face of it, getting the Japanese Army out of Nanjing and Guangzhou is simply going to be impossible without outside help. Unless a bargain can be struck with Japan, Chiang isn't getting those cities back. Meanwhile, Japan has nearly zero legitimacy in its latest conquests and can't hold them in perpetuity. That's the basis of a peace deal--and it would be seen as bittersweet on both sides. Japan gets Territorial gains; Chiang gets most of his territory restored after what would become essentially a brutal failure in the history books.
 
To do this:
1.ASBs must be involved.
2.Hitler must magically become very, very, liberal.
3.You must be completly insane.
4.The world will become made of chocalte.
5.You must go to the magical land of unicorns and dreams.
 
To do this:
1.ASBs must be involved.
2.Hitler must magically become very, very, liberal.
3.You must be completly insane.
4.The world will become made of chocalte.
5.You must go to the magical land of unicorns and dreams.

First question: Hitler is still going to have a hypnotic ability to give inspirational speeches and persuade others. He's just gone from Hitler to Obama in his content and attitudes. Wouldn't even a moderate Hitler have a chance to come to power?

Second Question: White, Dark or Mint Chocolate?
 
Well, if Faeelin's Stresemann can save the Weimar Republic, I'd be willing to say that Good Hitler can do it. (Is he blond? Does he have a goatee?) The Obama analogy, however, doesn't work - Germans in 1933 were a hell of a lot more racist and xenophobic than 2008 Americans, and a Hitler who has good things to say about Our Slavic Brothers quite likely doesn't get elected.

That being said, an alt-Hitler that rebuilds the army (slowly enough to avoid wrecking the economy), puts people to work again, and negociates the union of Germany and Austria probably has enough credit to strike down racist laws, let in Jewish refugees from Romania, push out the more conservative elements of the judiciary, and stamp down hard on radical thugs of the far right (which will exist with or without a Nazi party).

Of course, an ungrateful electorate votes him out of office in 1945, annoyed at the tax raises that funded Germany's greatly improved public school and university system and worried about all those Polish and Italian guest workers that have been let in to help with the labor shortage, and vote in an immigrant-basher...Hitler returns to his painting, which wins him several awards, and later plays a major role in the League of Nations committee which negociates the Jewish-Arab peace agreement in British Palestine. :)

Bruce
 
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