The Great Wall of Rome

Hadrian's Wall was more of a fence, where Rome would stay on their side and the Pictish barbarians can stay on the other. I don't think any Great Wall would have an appreciable impact on European history overall. The German barbarians would simply cross the rivers like they did in reality. The North-South flow of rivers in northern Europe makes building a wall of Rome a little more difficult than the Qin's wall, which mostly linked prexisting walls. Oh, and let's not forget that nomads sometimes entered China by bribing the guards, and that the wall did not keep out roaming hordes in China.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Hadrian's Wall was more of a fence, where Rome would stay on their side and the Pictish barbarians can stay on the other. I don't think any Great Wall would have an appreciable impact on European history overall. The German barbarians would simply cross the rivers like they did in reality. The North-South flow of rivers in northern Europe makes building a wall of Rome a little more difficult than the Qin's wall, which mostly linked prexisting walls. Oh, and let's not forget that nomads sometimes entered China by bribing the guards, and that the wall did not keep out roaming hordes in China.

The Romans (and the Chinese) also didn't stay behind their walls. China often undertook cavalry expeditions to chase of pesky nomadic groups. The Romans would often make incursions
 
But the romans usually use the rivers to these things.I think that the wall of Adriano is only an exception.
 
I think they could construct it if they wanted to, but most likely not. They favoured natural borders, with lighter fortifications behind. The walls really aren't effective as long as the guards can be bribed, you've got a major weakness.
 
Why should the Romans build such a wall? Strategically speaking, the majority of the barbarian populations surrounding the Empire were far too underdeveloped to pose a major credible threat, and until the mid to late 3rd century, barbarian invasions were generally confined to a small scope, similar to what the British faced on the frontier of the Raj. There’s also the fact that the entire Roman system of frontier defense wasn’t built on the principle of massive fortifications (although in some cases this did indeed exist, i.e. Hadrian’s Wall and the Rhaetian limes), but of forward garrisons occupying bordering barbarian client-states, combined with the limes defense system, proper legionary bases and colonial settlements of military veterans. The most plausible point for the creation of a Great-wall style fortifications system would be a greater development of the system of fortresses, fortified towns, and limes established to guard the frontiers of northern Mesopotamia during the 4th and 5th centuries.
 
Then the wall is doubly useless as defenses.

Ish.
Hadrians wall and the great wall of China (I sound like some Northumbria tourist board nutter speaking of the two in the same breath...) weren't built specifically to keep people out like castle walls. Sure, they were handy fortifications if one were needed but it wasn't their main point. Particulary with Hadrians.
It was far more a marker of where full Roman rule ended . A big impressive thing to show just how great Rome was and to serve as a (bunch of) border control facility.
I think the best bet for further Roman walls is along these lines. Perhaps within provinces. It helps to control imports and exports and lets the proper taxes be levied.
 
What I was trying to get at in this thread was not why a Great Wall of Rome would be built. More, after it was built, what would its effect be. I wasn't very clear.



Okay, let's say that some Emperor has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and he commissions the building of a wall twice as tall and thick as Hadrian's Wall around almost the entire empire. It is finished in 32 years.

After the wall is finished, what would its effect be? Several years after construction, decades after construction, centuries after construction, a millenium after construction.

Over the years, long after the fall of the Roman Empire, would it be repaired by empires that could make good use of it? Expanded? Possibly inspire Great Walls of other European nations?

Or would it be ignored and plundered?
 
To go with the closest parallel again, the Great Wall of China was mostly ignored after the Mongols invaded China. It fell into disrepair and neglect and it didn't have that much of an impact. I think a Roman wall might also do this, and also that it is going to be dismantled by people for building materials. After all how could you ignore the perfectly good pile of bricks lying around when you want to construct your lordly castle on the banks of the Mainz river? :D
 

Nikephoros

Banned
What I was trying to get at in this thread was not why a Great Wall of Rome would be built. More, after it was built, what would its effect be. I wasn't very clear.

No need to complain. It was a good discussion regardless.

Strict scenario purity is not something that should be religiously enforced.

Okay, let's say that some Emperor has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and he commissions the building of a wall twice as tall and thick as Hadrian's Wall around almost the entire empire. It is finished in 32 years.

So all of his advisors ignore his obvious lunacy? Not sure about that. But let's assume they do:

After the wall is finished, what would its effect be? Several years after construction, decades after construction, centuries after construction, a millenium after construction.

Assuming the Empire falls, the effect of the wall will be to provide building materials

Over the years, long after the fall of the Roman Empire, would it be repaired by empires that could make good use of it? Expanded? Possibly inspire Great Walls of other European nations?

Or would it be ignored and plundered?

Ignored and plundered. It's much more valuable to use as building material.

All of this assumes that the treasury isn't screwed to hell though.
 
No need to complain. It was a good discussion regardless.

I wasn't complaining, I was saying what I meant and that I wasn't very clear. You're still allowed to talk about why Rome would build such a wall in the first place, of course. I was just making clear what I didn't before.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
To go with the closest parallel again, the Great Wall of China was mostly ignored after the Mongols invaded China.

Actually, it was mostly ignored after the Manchu's invaded China. The Great Wall in its present form is a result of the Ming Dynasty. After chasing the Mongols back to the steppe, they repaired and enhanced the walls that were already in place.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
I wasn't complaining, I was saying what I meant and that I wasn't very clear. You're still allowed to talk about why Rome would build such a wall in the first place, of course. I was just making clear what I didn't before.

No harm then. I just get sick of people who don't like discussion that doesn't directly follow their scenario.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Well if we are to answer the new question, outside of the demographic aspects I mentioned, what would be the main historical effects of the wall ? It depends on how it affects warfare in the period following it's building. If it is successful at throwing back raids then we might see later, smaller walls as the empire begins to collapse. Depending on how the new entities would look some parts might get refurbished, with some towers or fortress becoming sieges of power for local potentats in late antiquity and the dark ages. Still later the idea might be more widespread than it was during the high middle ages (I know of two big walls/border defenses built during the period, the danish dike and the carolingian saxon wall). Also we might have other Anastasian walls (Thrace, 64km) in various parts of the Empire, for example maybe a longer wall at the shortest point of the Sinai...
 

terence

Banned
Well they did have Hadrian's wall in Britain to keep the pesky Scottish barbarians out, so it's not an unprecedented idea at least.

Trouble is that neither Hadrian's nor the Antonine Wall kept the Bastards out---Brown, Darling a many other rats crept in are still here!
 
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