The Great Turk returns - An alternate reforming Ottomans (1747)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Koprulu Mustafa Pasha, Mar 25, 2018.

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  1. Threadmarks: 1812

    Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    The forgotten Eyalet behind the mountains - 1811

    Dalmatia was conquered in the 1750s from Venice. Venice offered no real resistance and the biggest rival to keep Dalmatia away was Austria. After repelling the Austrians, the Ottomans secured their rule over Dalmatia. Dalmatia was rather unique in the Ottoman State as the governor was appointed by Istanbul but the Pasha of Dalmatia had much more autonomy to defend the region from possible Austrian and later French attacks. The current governor, Ali Pasha Ahmedagic, was the son of a converted Croatian Janissary from Mostar. As his father was later appointed as mayor of Mostar, Ahmed Aga gave his son Ali the education to have him work as a government official. After being noticed in the battlefield against the Austrians under command of Kara Ali Pasha, Ali was appointed as the Commander of the Ottoman Forces in Dalmatia under Suleiman Pashas supervision. The death of Suleiman Pasha in 1805 was followed by him taking over as Pasha of Dalmatia. Ali Pasha started to fortify settlements and ports against the growing threat and fought the Serb Rebels in the interior of Dalmatia with his Croatian Militia. When comparing Dalmatia with Bosnia, Dalmatia looked more like to be a part of Italy than the Balkans. In the cities Italian was the primary Language. In his Divan in Zadar, he had many wealthy Italians who helped him rule the region. The absence of Ottoman Authority kept the happiness of the local elite high. Even the soldiers there locals. Even though most soldiers were Croatian and Muslim, there were also Catholic Croatians from the cities, Muslim Serbs from the hinterland and Albanians from the south. The absence of Janissary nuisance helped Dalmatia develop the region with Local Christian collaboration, unlike Bosnia who still was dominated by the Ayans and their Janissary allies. Sultan Selim made no attempts to limit Dalmatian Autonomy. It seemed all good as long as the ruling class there did not try to break off. Of all Eyalets in the Empire, Dalmatia was the wealthiest. Being between Italy and the Balkans turned Dalmatia in a regional middle man.



    Peace in India - 1812

    The Indian War was ended by 1808 with military combat but there was no treaty until 1809. Amir Ali Khan left for Agra to meet with the EIC officials to discuss terms of peace. The Maratha envoys joined and at the Mughal Emperors insistence, the Mysori and Hyderabadi envoys were invited as well. Amir Ali Khan was instructed by Ismail IV to preserve the Mughal State as much as possible. The Mughal Emperor is their way to intervene in India and to keep the growing European Influence down. Amir Ali Khan, knowing what to do demanded the following

    • Rajasthan transferred under direct Mughal Vassalage
    • Sindh under direct Mughal Vassalage
    • Kashmir under direct Mughal Vassalage
    • Awadh under direct Mughal Vassalage
    • Hyderabad recognises the Mughal Emperor as their superior
    • Mysore recognises the Mughal Emperor as their superior
    • Maratha Confederacy recognises the Mughal Emperor as their superior
    • The EIC recognises the Mughal Emperor as their superior
    • The Mughal Emperor is on the currency in India by all participants
    • The Shah of Persia has the right to intervene on behalf of the Mughal Emperor should any participant breach the treaty
    • Persia has the right to intervene in the peace treaties between the EIC and the Maratha Confederacy

    The most important matter in the Persian demand was to secure Mughal Power to fend themselves against any future Maratha or EIC threats. Putting under direct rule was not desired by either the Persians or other participants. Amir Ali Khan did not want to antagonise the vassals by direct rule from Delhi. The rulers of Awadh, Sindh, Kashmir and Rajasthan could continue to rule but as vassals of the Mughal Emperor. Accepting Mughal Superiority had no real meaning other than accepting that the Mughal Emperor was the Emperor of India and all rulers had to recognise this right. The Sultan of Mysore and the Nizam of Hyderabad did not care too much as their old rule continued. But the Marathas had their issues with this. Seeing that they lost their superiority over the Mughals, made them feel uneasy. But the Persians guaranteeing to intervene on Maratha behalf should the EIC demand unacceptable concessions, made the Marathas accept the Safavid offer. The EIC was not willing to accept the treaty. The biggest obstacles were the Persians having the right to intervene in a treaty with the Marathas. Amir Ali Khan made clear that to ensure lasting peace in India, this was necessary. With threatening to raid Western Bengal and attack Ahmedabad, the EIC decided to accept the Persian offer. And the EIC-Maratha treaty followed:

    • The Marathas will cede Ahmedabad to the EIC
    • The Marathas will cede Cuttack to the EIC
    • The Marathas will pay 40,000,000 Pound worth of war reparations
    • The Marathas will reduce the Army to 40,000 man standing
    • The Marathas will surrender or destroy all naval vessels
    • The Marathas will destroy all forts in the Maharashtra and Gujarat to ensure the safety of Bombay, Surat and Ahmedabad governorates.
    • Peshwa Baji Rao II will be paid 10,000,000 Pound for being ousted of power

    The Marathas agreed to this and were even willing to accept to return Baji Rao II back to continue his rule as Peshwa of the Marathas. But this demand was vetoed by the Safavids fearing for joint Maratha-EIC alliance against the Persian-Mughal Alliance. This was followed by an EIC demand to limit the Maratha forces in case a new war broke out with the Marathas. Amir Ali Khan secured Safavid interests in Northern India while the EIC became the new threat, replacing the Marathas. If Baji Rao II did return to the Maratha lands it was impossible to not keep the EIC and the Marathas away from each other. A new war would follow likely within 15 years. Amir Ali Khan recognised the fact that the success of the Persian Campaign was due to the Maratha-Company conflict. The Mughal Forces turned out to be weaker than he expected and the Persian Numbers were not enough to crush both Company and Maratha Forces. Keeping them divided is the best chance of survival the Mughal Emperor has. This treaty was signed in 1809 and only ratified entirely by 1812.



    The Ottomans in the Indian Ocean - 1812

    With the Wahabite raids in Iraq and Hejaz, the Ottomans lost most of their small fortifications as the troops were needed somewhere else. Thus the Ottomans evacuated Somaliland and Oman to protect Bahrain and Sudan from pirate attacks. What the Ottomans did not give up were the Comoros. The archipelago in the Mozambique Channel were visited by a small Ottoman Fleet from Egypt as an expedition Force. There they were welcomed as the envoy of the Caliph. The Sultans of the islands asked Ottoman Protection as the growing power of Portugal in Mozambique became a threat to them. For this to happen, the Ottoman Navy needs a base. Every Sultan on the archipelago agreed to the demands and the rule of the Sultans were respected. Commander of the Ottoman Navy in Bahrain was instructed by the Commander of the Ottoman Navies to build a fortress near the sea and send 3 frigates to the islands. Every Island would have 100 men in the fortresses. As the Ottoman Navy secured the Comoros, they started to look West to Zanzibar and hoped to get success there as well. This time they were not so successful but the Omani Sultan who fled Muscat for Zanzibar offered privileges to the Ottomans as much as they offer to the EIC. The Ottoman Naval Vessels would not have to pay to enter the ports of Zanzibar Sultanate. Further to the west was the realm of the Kingdom of the Maldives.This was rather problematic. The EIC had interest in the islands and offered protection to the islands. To get the Maldives in Ottoman Influence, it has to be confirmed by the officials of the EIC. Sultan Selim wanted to avoid pointless conflicts with the EIC and the British as much as possible. Negotiations were started. The EIC had demands but did not refuse outright. Although a possible Ottoman Naval base close to Southern India made the EIC nervous. The obstacle was the ITL, the newly formed Istanbul Trade League. The Trade and Cargo Company was starting to rival the EIC in the Indian Trade. Due to the limited gains in the Great Indian War, the EIC wanted to avoid a new concurrent in India. Their demands was to keep the ITL out of India, only to allow them in the Sultanate of Mysore and in the dominion of the Nizam. With trade goods from other parts of India the ITL was kept away. And the EIC remained thus the primary trade company in the Indian Ocean. The ITL being a small company made concurrence hard if not impossible. But the rising investments made it sure it would not disappear anytime soon.
     
  2. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    Whats the stopping the mughals in 20 years killing the vassals and direct ruling them. The mughals know the reason they collapsed was due to too powerful vassals they won't let that happen again.

    How bad are the wahhabists and pirates that the ottomans had to abandon somalia and oman?
     
  3. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    Can Hyderabad plz get some focus they haven't had any focus. They are the richest indian state, they might have more money than the ottomans!. They are litteral lannisters. They can pay for the best want the best trained army in india, pay for french advisors, best equipment payed for, better commanders pay for them to study abroad, new tech heres alot of gold for it. They can spend there way to victory.
     
  4. Nurhaci Well-Known Member

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    Mughals get a good chance to build a federation
     
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  5. EnvarKadri Well-Known Member

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    And a chance for the Iranians to meddle in their federation, but Without the Safavids, there would be no new Mughal Empire.
     
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  6. RMcD94 Well-Known Member

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    Can you add threadmarks please? For someone who wants to start reading it would make it easier
     
  7. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    The problem is, the Safavids made the treaty for them. The Mughals need the Safavids to survive for the moment. But you can already see that no Mughal Emperor will like to continue like that if he regains a tiny bit of power. Future development will follow.

    It was not crucial but newly aquired regions were not a priority over the Hejaz.
     
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  8. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    I kinda neglected Hyderabad even though I had great plans with them back in the Summer. But... I forgot about the plans :/

    Any chance you're from Hyderabad?
     
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  9. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    True... but the larger institutions like Armies need to be under their control. Leaving it to vassals is not solving any problems as they could defect to EIC sides if they wished. Future developments will follow.
     
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  10. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Threadmarks? I am gonna be honest to you, I don't know what it is -____-

    Care to explain :/
     
  11. EnvarKadri Well-Known Member

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    A chapter glossary with links in the first post of the thread.
     
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  12. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Hmm okok... let me try something...
     
  13. EnvarKadri Well-Known Member

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    Also, do you have plans for the Astrakhan and Kazan tatars/bashkirs? Because with the POD they look quite screw especially the astrakhanis. I mean do you think its plausible to do something for them?
     
  14. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Not until modern times. I highly doubt I can change anything at all.
     
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  15. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    No but the last nizam of hyderabad eas richest man alive in his time, 200 billion usd. While Hyderabad doesn't have that now, doesn't mean there not rich they are the richest state in india. This is kinda important as they can just pay for everything. This means they can have the best military in all of asia. They should be doing more in your tl, however they seem to be the child eating glue in the background with the barbery states. Can the barbery states not just be annexed now, there doing nothing now, being annexed they can become relevant and be developed. The navy would want this as there alot of skilled sailors in africa.
     
  16. EnvarKadri Well-Known Member

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    Though so, since you did some things with kalmykian mongols, which live right next to the last of the astrakhanis which are right next north western modern Kazakhstan: [​IMG]
    But its gonna get heavily colonized by russian migrants in the following century, if not already is. It ocurred to me that they could be a land bridge between the caucasus muslims on one side and the kazakhs on the other. But seem quite imposible.
    I tought that maybe the volga muslims could luckier and maybe (later on the century or in the first half of the 20th) had the ottomans force eastern rumelia like situation with them on the Russian empire, but that also would be quite dificult. Bashkortostan is so close to the kazakhs border [​IMG]
    Not that it matters, northern Kazakhstan also is full of ethnic russian, their only chance is gonna come really late in the 20th century if they get one at all.
    I agree on your judgement but I wondered if maybe you knew something more about this.
     
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  17. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Lol'ed at this yo AHAHAHAHHAHAHA...

    I'll try to look for my ideas. I had an entire list of ideas on every region related to the Ottomans. But there is a good chance I deleted it... so I have to come with new ideas... But let's see what I can come up with...
     
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  18. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    At the moment the region is not that important yet... yet... But I wrote already something about Central Asia, an Uzbek led Khanate.
     
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  19. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    The Qajar Lion dies - 1812

    The hero of the Qajars, the Bey of Azerbaijan, is dead. Already being ill for over two months, Agha Mohammed died in his palace in Tabriz. His successor, Fath Ali. Named as the conqueror Ali, was his pupil and nephew. Being a commander of the Qajar troops in Azerbaijan vs the Russians in Karabakh. Having secured Azerbaijan from nomad raids by forcefully settling them in the North of the Aras River, Agha Mohammed changed the war thorn Azerbaijan from the 1720s onward to a peaceful region. Already coming in contact with French Ambassadors, he wished to build French Style universities in Tabriz and bring French teachers as well as Military officers for a Military Academy. Advising Ismail IV to follow a different Military path than the Ottomans who added French and Prussian Influence in their Military Doctrine. If the Shah continues to follow an Ottoman Military path, Persia will always remain behind of the Ottomans. The Military needs an overhaul as it continues the same up to date doctrine from the 1760s when Ismail III reconquered Persia. Ismail agreed but before Agha Mohammed could start his work, he became ill and unable to perform. That is were his nephew Ali became the Bey of Azerbaijan, before the Agha of Azerbaijan even died. Unlike his uncle, Fath Ali did not feel like turning against Sayyid Landowners in his domain. Agha Mohammed favoured Ismail IV view on confiscating the lands of Sayyids in an attempt to centralise the state. But as pressure put on from Tehran, Fath Ali did what his uncle intended and started to confiscate land of the Sayyids who gained the land as donation by Ismail I of Persia. Agha Mohammed died in the morning of March 16th in 1812. He left behind an Azerbaijan in development and a strong Northern border for Persia. The Wealthiest part of Safavid Persia.



    The Safavid Society - 1812

    The Safavid reconquest of Persia changed the Persian society. It started to look more like the Ottoman State rather than a usual Oriental/Central Asian State. The Armies were reformed, the state got more centralised, the governors were largely appointed from Tehran rather than Qizilbash leaders as hereditary rulers. But there were some small differences. The Safavids, unlike the Ottomans had a military dominated by Turkmens. Turks from Azerbaijan mostly and in lesser form Merv and Kyzylkum. The Safavid Forces consisted mainly of Turks who formed 61% of the Safavid Army with the Azerbaijanis forming 54%. The Persians formed 28% of the Army. About 10% were Circassians, Georgians and Ossetians. And the remaining 1% were Kurds. The Turkish Dominated Army however clashed with the Persian Dominated Clergy in the court of Ismail IV. Both factions tried to secure their influence in the court of the Shah. A reason of conflicts was the Azerbaijani Military Elite trying to tune down Clergy influence in Persia by removing the Sayyids from their estates. As the Sayyids form the big part of the Persian Shiite Clergy, this was reason for the Military to turn against the landowners. The Military was in favor of large scale westernisation of Government institutions and education. As many of them viewed it uttermost important to remain on par with the Ottoman Military to secure their own sovereignty. The Persian dominated Clergy however was hesitant on the topic of Westernisation. It might lead them to fall away from Religion as it was claimed that it was happening in the Ottoman Empire and Crimea. The Clergy was however divided on the topic of reforms. A faction of the clergy found it necessary to reform the State to avoid being dependent on the Ottomans if Russia were to attack again. The earlier Military reforms turned out for the good as the Persians had managed to beat back the Marathas and kept the EIC out of Awadh. The Indian Wars were their arguments. The conservative and reactionary factions however was certain that the reforms were pulling the Muslims away from their traditions. And a Muslim forgetting his tradition is in danger to “lose his faith in Allah”. The Clergy being largely Persian dominated proved as 80% of the Mullahs were Persians and only 15% were Azerbaijani. Shah Ismail was in an ideal position. He could use both the Army and Clergy against each other. Leaning more towards the Army did not make Ismail support the Army unconditionally as he viewed that giving the Army too much will lead to his own demise. Ismail can continue his reforms of the Armed Forces, the land reforms and education reforms. To experiment with these reforms he ordered Fath Ali to start it in Azerbaijan as Agha Mohammed already had the plans to start. If it has positive results, the Shah will enforce it in all of Persia.



    The Nizam of Hyderabad - 1812

    As the Indian Wars ended, the South of India remained largely intact. Mostly due to the pressure from Istanbul to remain neutral as the Ottoman State was not in position to support the South Indian States. However, this did not mean that a new war would spare them. As of that, the Nizam of Hyderabad Asaf Jah III, wanted more guarantee to protect his own state rather than to be dependent on the Ottomans for protection. With the Persians being far away in the North meant that help by the Safavids was as good as impossible. Asaf Jah III contacted the French Ambassadors in Mysore to visit Hyderabad as he wanted to negotiate a deal. The Nizam was sensing the danger of a potential resurgence of the Mughal Emperors and before that becomes reality, the Nizam needs his own modernised forces. Although the Nizam had many Ottoman Advisors, the French were seen as the biggest military power in the World. As of that, the French were asked to help. As the French envoy arrived in Hyderabad, the Nizam offered to protect French outposts in India against the EIC if the French help the Nizam to reorganise the Military. The French agreed immediately and outlined a plan. The Army of the Nizam would be 150,000 man strong. Another 30,000 would be recruited and trained in the best way to form a Royal Guard, the personal Army of the Nizam, an elite force. The bigger 150,000 man Army was to be trained according to French standards. Weapon manufacturers from France, Military Academies and Artillery Schools would be opened. The requirement was that the Nizam opened his Army to Indians of all religions as it would open new sources of manpower. The Nizam never minded to use Hindus in his armies as Hindus in the Armies of the Nizam were used by his predecessors as well. The Nizam also had to change the finances and create a long term budget for the military. The Military Budget was pointed at 30 million Francs. With 30 million Francs, the Nizam would have a modernised and mobile force standing. If the reforms succeeded, the Nizam of Hyderabad would have the biggest standing Army in India. Bigger than the EIC and Maratha Forces combined. And it would be the most modern force in Asia. The Regulars would be 108,000 Infantry men and 42,000 Cavalry units. The 30,000 Royal Guards would be 21,000 Infantry units and 9,000 Dragoons. At last the Artillery units had to be reorganised as well. Using French Artillery and creating Artillery Brigades as well as training schools for soldiers using artillery. The Mysori Rockets were also being integrated in the Hyderabadi forces as a part of new artillery units. With the large wealth of the Nizam, this was possible. The biggest obstacle would be if the French were still willing to continue to help the reorganisation. At the same time, Tipu Sultan also secured a French deal to reorganise the Mysori Forces. Mysore would have 120,000 men men standing, with 90,000 infantry units and 30,000 cavalry units. A Royal Guard unit was formed with 18,000 men. With South India getting militarised rapidly, the EIC was nervous about waiting out. But breaching the treaty with the Persians meant that the Marathas will join the Persians to fight the EIC as well to regain lost territory. It was risky. The EIC had now two options: Intervene immediately in Southern India or risk the chance of France influencing South India against the EIC.


    The age of Mediterranean Piracy ends - 1812

    The Barbary Pirates were largely reduced. Their activity had been reduced to Italian Islands and the Balearic Islands. Only when Spain was invaded by the French there were small raids on the mainland again. But as the Europeans started to strengthen themselves on the coast and retaliating on the Pirates, the Piracy of the North Africans became harder than it was. Selim III was reluctant to let the Pirates do as they wish. He already considered the plan to completely annex Tripoli as presented by Hafiz Murad Pasha. Hafiz, viewed North Africa as the undefended part of the Empire in danger of being attacked by European Powers. If the Europeans do land in North Africa then the risk of losing the connection with the Moroccans and facing a new front was a serious risk. Sultan Selim III already prepared for firmans to end all pirate activity. In return, he would give the North African States the primary chance to slave trade with the Ottoman State in order to compensate the revenue losses. Piracy in Tripoli was already non existent by the start of the 19th century except in one city, Tripoli. Tunis was considering to stop Piracy as well and try to benefit from the Saharan Slave Trade by bringing Sub Saharan Slaves to the Ottoman Empire. Morocco had already stopped Piracy by the early 1790s as Morocco got closer to European States and Piracy was the only burden to hurt their relationship. The danger of a Spanish Invasion of the Rif was the biggest trigger to stop Piracy. It was only Algeria that did not wish to stop Piracy even when it was no profitable as it use to be. It would take some years to finally enforce the end of Piracy by Algiers. Many Pirates who were now unemployed either became fishermen in their home region or moved to Morea as it got depopulated in some parts and joined the Ottoman Navy. Many merchants who bought European Slaves would now go South to look for the Sub Saharan Slave Trade. Sehzade Mustafa, already holding a negative view against slavery, managed to get his nephew Selim to order not to enslave Muslims with the risk of death penalty. The North African Rulers were ordered to execute the laws on enslaving fellow Muslims. This meant that Algerian Slavers had to go as far as the Ashanti land to get their Slaves. The Tunisian and Tripolitarian Slave Merchants could go to Darfur, much closer and within friendly Muslim Rule. The Muslim North African States became their colleagues in this job. But North African Slave Merchants did have rivals. The East African Zanzibar Sultanate already sold 10,000 Slaves a year to Persia and the Ottoman Empire. Around 7,200 ended up in the Ottoman Empire, of which 7,000 in Ottoman Egypt and 6,200 of the 7,000 in the recently conquered Sudan. Many Egyptian Mamluks who owned land started to purchase land from Ahmed Hurshid Pasha. As having serfs was strictly forbidden by Ahmed Hurshid Pasha, a decision hated by Egyptian Landowners, Slaves were needed for the Cotton plantations of Sudan. Even as plantation Slaves, there were laws not to treat the slaves as cattle but as human beings. Every Slave was ‘hired’ for 50 years from the age of 15 and to be paid a small salary. Every child born of slaves were born free. Just like Sehzade Mustafa, Ahmed Hurshid Pasha, hearing from European Merchants about American Plantations, did not like slavery much either and wanted to prevent to turn it into such godforsaken situation. Conversion to Islam would lower their years on the land of the Landowners with 50%. The result was larger conversion to Islam by Sub Saharan Africans and the growing influence and power of Sub Saharan Muslim States. The North African States would not profit too much of the Slave Trade but saw slaves as alternatives to serfs in Western Anatolia and Morea.
     
  20. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    So slavery increasing even though the heir hates it. Really need to invest in north africa. Arab lands will need that one reform annex the north to get more land and find a way to make sustainable and very profitable same with arabia.

    Nice Hyderabad doing stuff smart idea offer them the best looking ottoman princess in exchange for investment in north africa or arabia. Its going to be weird as when the tipu sultan dies Hyderabad will become the dominate of the two yet they have no coast. Hyderabad is bank roller of the islamic world, should get to develop there own tactics as they have the money we could see the Hyderabad based the military doctrine on mass artillery.
     
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