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Osman Aga

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Great chapter again, and Pls make the TL to 1900 because it's rare to find an ottoman TL and finding one that is fun and good is a blessing.
Any way are you turning the turan region "the Stan's " to shia ? And is morroco got land in the new world if so I hope south amarica is ready for couscous 😄 .

There is @Nassirisimo TL about the Ottoman Empire with a PoD in 1876. I can't wait until he continues, I loved to read it yet again.

Nope. Central Asia stays Sunni, to avoid a Hotaki alike rebellion. Smaller attempts are not government sponsored though I won't pay much attention to that.

Morocco is going to get something. A Penal colony. And this time they will keep it.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Would be interesting if the muslim power would form an alliance later on to counter european colonization efforts.

There is going to be more ties between Muslim Nation. It starts with the Ottomans, Safavids and Mughals, spreading over to the Crimean Khanate, Mysore, Hyderabad and Morocco. Mostly an alliance to protect each other as a result of dynastic marriages. Example: Persian Princesses marrying Indian Muslim Rulers = Persian Protection of the Indian Muslim Nations as result.
 
Hey, former lurker here. I read your first version of this timeline and enjoyed it, its uncommon to see a TL where the Ottomans reverse their historical decline. I look forward to where the 2nd version ends up going, especially in the 19th century.

P.S., in an earlier update where you mentioned that the population of the Crimean Khanate in the 1750s was 5 million, doesn't that seem rather steep for that period of time?
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Hey, former lurker here. I read your first version of this timeline and enjoyed it, its uncommon to see a TL where the Ottomans reverse their historical decline. I look forward to where the 2nd version ends up going, especially in the 19th century.

P.S., in an earlier update where you mentioned that the population of the Crimean Khanate in the 1750s was 5 million, doesn't that seem rather steep for that period of time?

Not sure where I saw that but apparently, the Crimean Khanate population was around 4-5 million in the mid to late 18th century. This could be with a lot of slaves of the Tatars added to it but not sure. I have to look it once to make sure. If it is different I will update that part.

Unfortunately not everyone is interested in Ottoman History and if they have them in the TL they often use it in such manner that it either goes as historically or does worse.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Hey, former lurker here. I read your first version of this timeline and enjoyed it, its uncommon to see a TL where the Ottomans reverse their historical decline. I look forward to where the 2nd version ends up going, especially in the 19th century.

P.S., in an earlier update where you mentioned that the population of the Crimean Khanate in the 1750s was 5 million, doesn't that seem rather steep for that period of time?

Update: I looked upon the population quickly... it is as low as 500k... So a '0' less and as much as 4 million according to the correspondence of Baron de Tott and Qirim Giray. So play it save and keep it at 1 million. Seems fair, will grow more with the addition of Ottoman Crimean areas and the Budjak region, as well as acquisition of parts of the Steppes North of Khanate. So a population of 1,5 million by 1765 should be fair.
 
Update: I looked upon the population quickly... it is as low as 500k... So a '0' less and as much as 4 million according to the correspondence of Baron de Tott and Qirim Giray. So play it save and keep it at 1 million. Seems fair, will grow more with the addition of Ottoman Crimean areas and the Budjak region, as well as acquisition of parts of the Steppes North of Khanate. So a population of 1,5 million by 1765 should be fair.
That seems like a more realistic population, although I would be interested to see what the population would increase to in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially regarding improved agriculture and medicine, discovery of germ theory. industrialisation and most/all of the Crimean Tartar population becoming more sedentary.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
That seems like a more realistic population, although I would be interested to see what the population would increase to in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially regarding improved agriculture and medicine, discovery of germ theory. industrialisation and most/all of the Crimean Tartar population becoming more sedentary.

There is enough time for that. Changes will follow within a decade, maybe two, as raiding will no longer work out against a stronger Russia closer on the borders
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Hey, would you be able to say what the Ottoman population by 1900 ITTL is? It might be able to help me with the timeline I'm working on.

In my TL, if the borders are largely the same as 1747 (Balkans - Budjak + Ionian Islands and Ragusa) = 70,000,000-80,000,000 (With Libya and without Algiers, Tunis and Crimean Khanate). Realistically 55-60 million is achievable in 1900, with mine also depending on immigration and much less warfare.

In OTL it was 30 million in 1876 (without Serbia, Greece, Montenegro and Egypt, adding them would make it around 40 million), but a lot was impacted with wars, defeats affecting it more, the Turkoman Nomads being settled in the period 1820-1860) in Anatolia. My TL will settle the Nomads of Anatolia earlier (1780-1820) thus increasing population growth. Might be stretch but is doable, especially if sparsely populated areas grow a bit better TTL (Levant, Iraq etc). And increased immigration.
 
In my TL, if the borders are largely the same as 1747 (Balkans - Budjak + Ionian Islands and Ragusa) = 70,000,000-80,000,000 (With Libya and without Algiers, Tunis and Crimean Khanate). Realistically 55-60 million is achievable in 1900, with mine also depending on immigration and much less warfare.

In OTL it was 30 million in 1876 (without Serbia, Greece, Montenegro and Egypt, adding them would make it around 40 million), but a lot was impacted with wars, defeats affecting it more, the Turkoman Nomads being settled in the period 1820-1860) in Anatolia. My TL will settle the Nomads of Anatolia earlier (1780-1820) thus increasing population growth. Might be stretch but is doable, especially if sparsely populated areas grow a bit better TTL (Levant, Iraq etc). And increased immigration.
1. Thank you for the quick and detailed response.
2. I just want to say I really like your timeline.
3. Is that 70-80 million number without Egypt?
4. In my timeline, I plan on the Ottoman Empire (which has the territory of the 1914 OTL Empire plus Greek Thrace, Bulgaria, and Wallachia but minus Yemen) to have 81,293,780 people as of 1906. Its larger population is due to much earlier reforms and earlier large-scale industrialization plus the Nomads of Anatolia settling earlier like in your TL. Would the earlier large-scale industrialization make this possible in any way in your opinion? There also might be some other minor factors that lead to this population boom.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
1. Thank you for the quick and detailed response.
2. I just want to say I really like your timeline.
3. Is that 70-80 million number without Egypt?
4. In my timeline, I plan on the Ottoman Empire (which has the territory of the 1914 OTL Empire plus Greek Thrace, Bulgaria, and Wallachia but minus Yemen) to have 81,293,780 people as of 1906. Its larger population is due to much earlier reforms and earlier large-scale industrialization plus the Nomads of Anatolia settling earlier like in your TL. Would the earlier large-scale industrialization make this possible in any way in your opinion? There also might be some other minor factors that lead to this population boom.

No problem m8. Thank you as well, I appreciate that. The 70-80 million is with Egypt. Egypt will likely have 17-25% of the population by 1900. Early population boom.

1914 Borders + Greek Thrace? Okay... ehm... 30-35 million is most realistic. Having 81 million by then is not really possible as far as I see it. I am not sure if medical and agrarian technology is strong enough for 1900 Anatolia + Middle East to have such population and support it. Do as you prefer however. If you have good reasons it can be possible then I will see it.
 
No problem m8. Thank you as well, I appreciate that. The 70-80 million is with Egypt. Egypt will likely have 17-25% of the population by 1900. Early population boom.

1914 Borders + Greek Thrace? Okay... ehm... 30-35 million is most realistic. Having 81 million by then is not really possible as far as I see it. I am not sure if medical and agrarian technology is strong enough for 1900 Anatolia + Middle East to have such population and support it. Do as you prefer however. If you have good reasons it can be possible then I will see it.
Thanks for the advice, I will fix my timeline accordingly.
 
Shahjahanabad, near Delhi
Shahjahanabad is Delhi, all the other Delhi's are essentially defunct at this point. But otherwise nice update! The Durranis really must be feeling the pressure, the existence of an independent state in this region is somewhat of a historical anomaly that the Safavids will definitely try to "rectify" as soon as they can.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Shahjahanabad is Delhi, all the other Delhi's are essentially defunct at this point. But otherwise nice update! The Durranis really must be feeling the pressure, the existence of an independent state in this region is somewhat of a historical anomaly that the Safavids will definitely try to "rectify" as soon as they can.

The Safavids look aside for the moment as A). They have not secured Persia yet and B). The Durranis are united. They want to avoid a second Hotaki disaster. Post 1780s, the Safavids will change their policy.
 
Mehmed V: (1757-1758: More Army Campaigns)

Osman Aga

Banned
The trouble at court - 3 May 1757 - Edirne, Thrace, Ottoman Empire
The success of the Ottoman Armies against the Austrians was not all good. Ali Pasha’s advice to invade Polish-Ukraine to draw the Russian Forces to the fortresses of Kamieniec and Chotyń and keep them from invading Moldova drew some uneasy responses from Mehmed Pasha. The Grand Vizier was unsure if it was financially possible to fight two fronts with such large armies, with Ali Pasha asking to increase the taxes with 33% during war time. The invasion of Malta was calculated in this matter and this was the point Mehmed Ragip Pasha said “no more”. The very preparations of the Malta invasion was at danger. Ali Pasha offered a solution to Mehmed Ragip Pasha. Lower the increase of taxes during war with 20% instead of 33% + one year after the last war ends and take loans from the Greek and Jewish Merchants. Ali Pasha said it is easier to pay the merchants one by one and the State treasury can get 10,000,000 Akce from 200 Merchants. The issue with both Pasha’s was the interest of such loans. According to Sharia Law, demanding and paying interest was forbidden. There is no way to turn around that by the Grand Mufti so an alternative had to be made. Estate donation in Thrace and the Aegean Islands was considered. A lot of estates in the Aegean remained empty as they were a part of the Admiralty and the Admiralty did not use them. The estate donation would be a substitution to interest, and would be seen as a gift for their support of the Ottoman Military rather than extra money for a loan. Mehmed Pasha was unsure but agreed to present it to the Sultan. The Sultan was feeling ill at the moment and thought he was going to die soon. His heir, Prince Mehmed, supported Ali Pasha in this matter. The issue with regards to taxing was still tense. It was unlikely to be used in Belgrade and Bosnia as it seems to only increase rebellion there but was considered fit to use in other Provinces. Little would the Pasha’s know that this decision would lead to a rebellion later on. But none of the Pasha’s would live to see it.

Siege of Szeged - 15 June 1757/26 September 1757 - Szeged, Kingdom of Hungary
The Ottomans had amassed an army of 90,000 men to besiege Szeged. The siege was a whole disappointment as the Ottomans could not properly surround Szeged and the garrison was too big to assault it. About 8,000 men were in town and they were fresh to repel all assaults if it happened. Halil Pasha was instructed by Ali Pasha not to storm Szeged. The fall of Szeged would result in opening the Tisza crossing into Central Hungary and leaving Transylvania cut from the Austrian Army. The siege failed as the Ottomans could not surround it nor could they storm it. Attempts to take over the weak defenses North of the city failed, leaving 2,000 Ottoman Soldiers dead at the end of the siege with 450 Austrian losses. Halil Pasha returned to Timișoara on 26 September and read a letter from Edirne that he had to move to Gyulafehérvár in Transylvania. The town is badly defended and the garrison is lower. Frederick August cannot move against the Ottomans on time and it will leave Transylvania open to Ottoman attacks in the next Spring season. The Crimean Tatars are preparing to send a force of 20,000 to support the Ottomans as Seyyid Abdullah Pasha has his reserves ready in Kagul to protect the Crimea against Russian attacks.
The failure in Szeged proved a few things. The Ottomans would face huge difficulties against stronger defenses without an army of at least 150,000 men, if they could not surround it entirely. The Ottomans would not succeed in taking over these large towns even with bigger armies as long as the enemy has a big army in the area. The Ottomans cannot ensure victory in Transylvania as long as the Austrian Army is not crippled by either them or the Prussians or Savoyards, which is also unlikely. The Prussians have been driven away from Prague, while Milan fell to the Savoyards but are now besieged by the Austrians. The death of Sultan Osman III (1754-1757) offered a position to a more energetic Sultan: Mehmed V (1757-....). Mehmed V was an admirer of his father Ahmed III and İbrahim Pasha for their dedication. He promised himself to turn the State into something every Muslim can be proud of. He supported Ali Pasha and Mehmed Pasha in the war effort and even decreased palace spendings with 20%. Mehmed V was informed by Ali Pasha that not only was the siege a means to open the Tisza for the Ottomans and prevent the Austrians in a surprise invasion of the Banat, it also tried to look if the Austrians actually moved against the Ottoman Army. With the Austrians actually waiting out, the Ottomans knew that the Austrians were short on manpower and could not lose more men than usual. The successful defense of Szeged gave morale to the Austrian Forces.

Battle of Nagyvarad - 14 April 1758 - Nagyvarad, Transylvania, Kingdom of Hungary
The early Ottoman successes led to the fall of Gyulafehervar in Ottoman hands. Frederick August could no longer await as another major town fell in the East. He got his luck as Halil Pasha led an Army along the Tisza and moved to Nagyvarad. When he heard of the Austrian Army crossing the Tisza, he faced them in East of Debrecen but could not drive them out. He returned to Nagyvarad and this drew Field Marshal Frederick August East to face the Ottoman Army in the field. The Ottomans had 79,000 men while the Austrians had 72,000 men. The Austrians had initially repelled all Ottoman attempts to break the Austrian flanks and drove them back to Nagyvarad. The Austrians had thus far lost 2,000 men while the Ottomans lost 3,200 men. The Ottoman was faced with an encirclement that could destroy the entire Army. Halil Pasha ordered a retreat from Nagyvarad and attacked the Austrians South of the town while the defenses were weak. The Austrians lost 4,000 men while the Ottomans lost 4,800 men. The total losses of 7,800 men of the Ottomans was too high for something unachieved. Halil Pasha was wounded and Nagyvarad was lost. The Tisza defenses failed and the Austrians had once again secured their roads to Transylvania. Halil Pasha was wounded during the break through the Austrian lines and arrived barely alive to Timișoara three weeks later. Sari Mustafa Pasha had to abandon the siege of Beszterce in Northern Transylvania with his 21,000 men and left for the Army near the Banat to command it. The Ottoman Pasha’s were shocked at the defeat. Halil Pasha could have faced an execution due to his failure in the expedition and was only saved after the intervention of Mehmed V himself. With three expeditions failing in Debrecen, Nagyvarad and Beszterce, the Hungarian Campaign caused a Political Crisis in Edirne. Ali Pasha was ordered by the Sultan to take some time off in Sofia and not return to the Front. The Sultan himself went to Timișoara to take a look at the situation. He still executed the order to take Malta as the fleet was ready to sail out.

Fall of Malta - 11 September 1758 - Valletta, Malta, Knights of St. John Base
The city of Valletta fell after three months of siege and a final storm of the Ottoman Army. The Fleet of 20 Ship of the Line, including the Osmaniye, an 90 gun Ship of the Line under Ebubekir Pasha resulted in the fall of the base. The fall would only be heard later as Fernando VI was shocked that a fief of the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily fell to a Muslim Invader. It was the Spanish inability to send a fleet after their defeat in the Strait of Gibraltar against the Royal Navy, that made the recovery of Malta a long term goal. Malta had 4,000 trained defenders and 10,000 volunteers. The volunteers were not as effective as expected but the knights themselves fought to the very last man. The Ottomans lost 15,000 men of their 60,000 forces, during the entire campaign of which 9,000 in the last assault. The town fell, Esad Pasha was unable to stop the Ottoman Army from looting the town and Ebubekir Pasha did not halt to enslave half of Malta’s population. The North African reinforcements of 10,000 men did not stop their rampage for a whole week until Ebubekir Pasha declared it was enough. There were already North Africans being settled in Malta after the departure of the Island population as slaves. The Maltese agony was only heard before Christmas of 1758 in Rome in which it spread over all of Europe. The French had no options to no longer consider the Ottomans as French, the Spanish Bourbon Kings lost the prestige they had as overlords of Malta. France could not do anything with their fleet tied to the Atlantic. The Spanish had no Fleet that could fight the Ottomans as the main fleet had to repel any British attack. The French tried their last attempt by sending their former ambassador to Istanbul hoping to end the Malta Crisis and prevent the Spanish from diverting attention East. The early conquest of Oran by Algiers, the fall of Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco to the Moroccans was already a burden to the Spanish. The fall of actual Christian lands was unacceptable. But there was nothing they could do at the moment. Malta lost a fifth of their population during the war with another 50% being deported after the fall. None of the Knights survived as they either died during the defense or were executed after their capture. As far as Ebubekir Pasha was concerned, the killing of all the Knights was justified, but he questioned whether it was right to allow the military to rampage on the town as revenge for the huge casualties. In the following years, the island got a larger share of Greeks to populate and a Phanariot Governor. As the Greek population rises, discrimination against the Roman Christians rose further, this time by the Greeks.
 
Nice chapter, again a thread is missing 😢
The Greeks got some taste of revenge for the Fourth Crusade also the ottoman empire needs to learn how to always improve its military and doctrines to keep up with the west.
 
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