The Great Turk Returns 2.0: Ottoman resurgent TL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariots Seems They could push Rum/greek to be more integrated, even if not convert.
It is a bit hard to integrate the Greeks. Options are that they assimilate linguistically. Not impossible but there is no trigger to get that done. Religious assimilation is even harder. They are devout Christians. But the Phanariots will play an important political role in the Empire past the 1800s. Especially when Liberalism kicks in. Their first growing political influence will start in the early 1780s.
 
It is a bit hard to integrate the Greeks. Options are that they assimilate linguistically.
I don't say those... i say the one that matter... political-cultural, like they would prefer the ottoman sultan over others european puppets, that is the most important asimilation, all evertyhing is secondary(you can push if you want to served, you need to know turkish and arabic, everything else is secondary)
 
I don't say those... i say the one that matter... political-cultural, like they would prefer the ottoman sultan over others european puppets, that is the most important asimilation, all evertyhing is secondary(you can push if you want to served, you need to know turkish and arabic, everything else is secondary)
As I said, there growing participation in domestic politics will start. They will be the leading force of European liberal influence against absolute power of the Sultan. Mostly due to their ties with the West.
 
As I said, there growing participation in domestic politics will start. They will be the leading force of European liberal influence against absolute power of the Sultan. Mostly due to their ties with the West.
I think people are too use western politics should explore more system and line of thought, but more ideas help, and could help using the sultan to keep tension controlled, again those not sound good news, feels like fifth columnist on the making
 
Seems They could push Rum/greek to be more integrated, even if not convert
The goal of most phanariotes in this time period was to slowly increase their influence in order to create a hellenoturcocratic condominium. It would be beneficial for the sultan to use them almost as intendants as a check on the ayans in the provinces, as being non Muslims they can't establish their own power bases, they have relatives/ potential bargaining chips in Constantinople and are ideally hoping for a return to Byzantine norms which does involve an autocratic ruler. The ottomans should however stop using the patriarchate as simply an excuse to extort money from candidates for clerical positions and attempt to reform it and make better use of clerical positions as representatives of the monarch amongst the common people and make monasteries centres of knowledge and education.
 
you need to know turkish and arabic
Phanariotes were already very multilingual as they supplied the empire with its all important class of dragomans/ambassadors, which required knowledge of not just Turkish, Arabic and Persian but also European languages. Getting rid of them all right before the Greek war for independence crippled the ottoman ability to negotiate with European powers, securing Greek independence.
Mostly due to their ties with the West.
The same west which is at the moment experiencing a boom in the idea of the absolute authority of the State in the abstract sense, even if the monarchs power is limited, can hardly be characterised as especially liberal.
 
I think people are too use western politics should explore more system and line of thought, but more ideas help, and could help using the sultan to keep tension controlled, again those not sound good news, feels like fifth columnist on the making
I realized that and it isn't the Muslim leading figures craving for Western influences. The Phanariots are Christian. They have ties to the West. They are influenced by those ties. They want it implemented in the Empire. In OTL it resulted in the Greek revolution. In this TL, it may result in a different way.

You can't really have solution without making some concessions. It ain't gonna happen in the 18th century. The 19th century might be a lot more different.
 
The goal of most phanariotes in this time period was to slowly increase their influence in order to create a hellenoturcocratic condominium. It would be beneficial for the sultan to use them almost as intendants as a check on the ayans in the provinces, as being non Muslims they can't establish their own power bases, they have relatives/ potential bargaining chips in Constantinople and are ideally hoping for a return to Byzantine norms which does involve an autocratic ruler. The ottomans should however stop using the patriarchate as simply an excuse to extort money from candidates for clerical positions and attempt to reform it and make better use of clerical positions as representatives of the monarch amongst the common people and make monasteries centres of knowledge and education.
There is too much to lose by supporting rebellions in areas with Greek majority of 75% or higher. The Greek elite is still based in the Capital, which is half Islamic and at best a quarter Greek. The areas around the Capital are also largely Islamic with the Bulgarians as the second biggest group. Not really potential candidates as allies to rebel.

The Sultan is not willing to give up his power. The Phanariots want their property rights guaranteed and basic rights respected at first. There can not be sense of liberal movement or nationalistic movement if it doesn't exist yet. Over time the position of the Phanariots will change from being a source of appointed princes of the Danubian Principalities, Patriarch and diplomatic mission.
 
Phanariotes were already very multilingual as they supplied the empire with its all important class of dragomans/ambassadors, which required knowledge of not just Turkish, Arabic and Persian but also European languages. Getting rid of them all right before the Greek war for independence crippled the ottoman ability to negotiate with European powers, securing Greek independence.

The same west which is at the moment experiencing a boom in the idea of the absolute authority of the State in the abstract sense, even if the monarchs power is limited, can hardly be characterised as especially liberal.
If I forgot to mention, that is something for the 19th century. As far as I am concerned, a more powerful Ottoman Empire and a bigger Ottoman Empire requires a powerful sultan with the last saying in decisions. But it will try to reflect more like Mahmud II yet earlier than the 1820s.
 
Phanariotes were already very multilingual as they supplied the empire with its all important class of dragomans/ambassadors, which required knowledge of not just Turkish, Arabic and Persian but also European languages. Getting rid of them all right before the Greek war for independence crippled the ottoman ability to negotiate with European powers, securing Greek independence.

The same west which is at the moment experiencing a boom in the idea of the absolute authority of the State in the abstract sense, even if the monarchs power is limited, can hardly be characterised as especially liberal.
Knowledge of Turkish makes sense as most, if not all of the Government Officials speak Turkish. It is also the language of the military. Arabic would only make sense in domestic sense with locals or with diplomatic missions to non-Ottoman Arab regions. There is also no religious tie to promote Arabic among the Phanariots. Useful but not crucial.

The Ottomans were pretty much done for by 1826 as the Europeans had decided that there would be a Greece created. How and with whom was not decided yet. That could have been solved with much less losses. Greece would be probably smaller with the borders of 1830, a Phanariot Prince as ruler and not all Muslims evicted from Greece post 1830. So a same situation like Serbia. For the Ottomans, the best of the worst options.
 
Greece would be probably smaller with the borders of 1830, a Phanariot Prince as ruler and not all Muslims evicted from Greece post 1830. So a same situation like Serbia. For the Ottomans, the best of the worst options.
Surely its better to take the muslims back? Also what about the islands greece or ottoman?
 
Yeah and massacring your best diplomats in 1821 does wonders in alienating the international community by 1826.
Well on one hand you have Philhellenist promoting the Rebellion. Then you have Nicholas I becoming Czar and preparing for war. Then there is also Charles X who preferred to support Christian Greeks over the Ottomans. At last there were the British who tried to make Russian gains as low as possible.

I don't say the pogrom against the Greeks in 1821 was good but the war extending past 1825 was making the situation harder. Types like Alexander Ypsilantis, a Phanariot, supporting the rebellions did not make the situation easier.
 
I have a question , what about the Suez Canal .
do you think that it's a good idea for the sublime port to start thinking about it, they can even get the UK or any other interesting GB to invest in the project.
The canal will help the ottomans economy, politically and open the door for the navy to control the red Sea
 
Osman III (1755: Army Organization and Population Statistics) New
Long live Sultan Osman III - 1 January 1755 - İstanbul, Thrace, Ottoman Empire
Sultan Mahmud I (1730-1754) died while returning from the Friday Prayer. He had a stroke and was in a coma. By nightfall he was declared dead and by morning the people were informed about the death of the Sultan and his funeral followed quickly afterwards. Sultan Osman III reign started. Osman was already in his 50s and the government officials led by Ali Pasha were unsure whether Sultan Osman would change from his brother's policy. With the influence of his mother, Ali Pasha was allowed to continue his policy. Seyyid Abdullah Pasha resigned as Grand Vizier and he was chosen as the Governor of Rumelia. A highly important position during the wars with Austria. Mehmed Ragip Pasha became the new Grand Vizier. Mehmed was a pro-peace supporter at court. Ali Pasha explained to the Grand Vizier peace would not last if the Austrian threat is not dealt with. If Austria is not beaten with success, the future would look grim as the Austrians and Russians would divide the Danubian Principalities and the Crimean Khanate among themselves and use Poland-Lithuania like they desire. At that point, peace is no longer guaranteed. Mehmed Pasha was not pleased with the war plans but gave Ali Pasha his permission. Sultan Osman III was now also convinced.

Osman III: “Ali Pasha, it is good to see a Pasha like you put so much effort for the good of the State. Mehmed Pasha has also said a lot of good things about you.”

Ali Pasha: “I wish you well my Sultan. Sultan Mahmud supported me in all my work for the State. I hope that Allah grants you a long and healthy life as I can get your support as well my Sultan.”

Osman III: “You have it. You are a great man Pasha. Isn’t that right Mehmed?”

Mehmed Pasha: “Yes my Sultan. Ali Pasha is a great man.”

Osman III: “Now Ali, tell me about the current situation of your preparations…”

Ali Pasha had brought the Sekban regulars to Rumelia. The Sekbans grew exponentially since the formation and now have 90,000 men armed with another 60,000 to be trained in 5 years in Anatolia. With 150,000 Infantry forces the Ottomans had more than enough men to fight the enemy. These were also supported by the Janissary Tumens who were still undergoing reorganizations to keep it as elite and strong as possible. The Sipahis were organized in Tumens and that was it for them. A new force of standing Cavalry force of the Janissaries and the New Sipahis were also formed. About 10,000 Janissary Cavalry and 30,000 Heavy Sipah-I Cedid cavalry forces. Ali Pasha explained it as followed:
  • Janissary Corps: 50,000 ready for battle
  1. Eight Tumens of infantry (8x5,000)
  2. Two Tumens of cavalry (2x5,000)
  • Sekban Corps: 90,000 ready for battle
  1. Eighteen Tumens of infantry (18x5,000)
  • New Sipahi: 30,000 ready for battle
  1. Six Tumens of cavalry (6x5,000)

  • Timarli Sipahi: 200,000 ready for battle
  1. 40 Tumens of cavalry (40x5,000)
  • Irregulars: 200,000
  1. 30 Tumens of infantry (30x5,000)
  2. 10 Tumens of cavalry (10x5,000)

Ali Pasha explained that there were 130,000 regular infantry men with another 60,000 following from the Sekban Corps. The Cavalry forces were 40,000 men regulars. In total, the Ottoman Manpower source was 570,000 men with another 120,000 coming within a few years. The Irregulars and Sipahis were high in numbers but could not all be fielded without risking to stay defenseless against a rebellion. In war, the Ottoman Armies could field five armies at best against both Austria and Russia at the same time. On average, that would be 60,000 an army. The advantage the Ottoman Armies will have is the lower number of Austrian Enemies as the Prussians will declare war on Austria, forcing a division of the Austrian Armies. The Russians will also have to divide their forces to Prussia and the Ottomans if they have to honour their alliance with Austria. Ali Pasha suggested to use 150,000 men of the Armies against Russia, with 100,000 men against Austria and keeping a reserve of 50,000 men for a potential invasion of Malta. Ali Pasha formed five armies
  1. Army of Dobruja: 75,000 (Russia)
  2. Army of Budjak: 75,000 (Russia)
  3. Army of the Danube: 60,000 (Austria)
  4. Army of the Sava: 40,000 (Austria)
  5. Expedition Army: 50,000 (Malta)
This meant that the Ottoman Empire could still use 150,000 men against the Russian enemies and still be supported by almost a 100,000 Crimean Tatar Light cavalry by Qirim I Khan. The Danubian Principalities had each 15,000 men at best and could field 30,000 extra against the Austrians, though their loyalty was questioned. The Maltese expedition needs to be formed as soon as the French and Spanish Navies leave the Mediterranean for the Atlantic and the West Indies. Nobody can know that there is an invasion of Malta, so the rumor is actively spread that the remaining Forces will be used against a possible Austrian incursion in Dalmatia. If Ali Pasha’s expectations are right, the Austrians can field 90,000 men and the Russians 80,000 men against the Ottomans. These forces will likely be divided. The Ottoman Treasury will spend 10,000,000 Akce on the Armies to keep them going on. This also means that the taxes will increase with 10% as long as the war continues. Ali Pasha chose a few Commanders fit for leading armies:
  • Bahri Mustafa Pasha (Governor of Anatolia)
  • Sari Mustafa Pasha (former commander of the Janissaries)
  • Seyyid Abdullah Pasha (Governor of Rumelia)
  • Esat Pasha Al Azm (Governor of Syria)
  • Ivazzade Halil Pasha (Governor of Belgrade)
  • Izzet Mehmed Pasha (Governor of Baghdad)

Esat Pasha and Izzet Mehmed Pasha were already chosen to lead the expedition to Malta under command of the Admiral of the Navy, Ebubekir Pasha. Ali Pasha himself would lead the armies together with Halil Pasha against the Austrians while Sari Mustafa Pasha and Macar Hasan Pasha would lead the Armies in Bosnia. Bahri Mustafa and Seyyid Abdullah would be under the command of the Grand Vizier Mehmed Ragip Pasha and fight against the Russians. Sultan Osman was impressed with the details offered by Ali Pasha and was surprised by Pasha’s desire to go to battle himself. Ali Pasha declared that he would feel guilty that others have to execute the plan Ali Pasha made himself. He wants to keep everything organized by himself as much as possible to prevent disaster. When the Sultan asked what would be gained Ali Pasha explained that as well.
  • Principality of Transylvania reestablished
  • Principality of the Banat established
  • Borders of the Crimean Khanate moved more to the North
  • Crimean Khanate takes over the land of the Circassians
  • Russian and Austrian intervention in Poland-Lithuania reduced by supporting Stanislaw Poniatowski

The first two points were the hardest. If the Ottomans did indeed succeed to create the Principality of Transylvania again as well as a Principality of the Banat, the Austrian ability to project power to the east is largely reduced. According to Ali Pasha, hitting the Austrians as far North as Buda is possible, though gaining much more than the formation of the Principalities is unlikely under any circumstances. Ali Pasha suggested asking a Bourbon Prince to be the Prince of a unified Principality of Transylvania and Banat. If the French Bourbons are put as Princes of the new Principality, they will be less eager to reject such peace offers. Whether this would work out in reality is still up to the question. If Transylvania is severed from the Hungarian Crown, the Hungarians will move away as time goes on from their loyalty of the Habsburgs to the new Bourbon Princes. A New Kingdom of Hungary will end one enemy for the Ottomans in Europe. When Sultan Osman III asked how long this process may take, Ali Pasha told it would take in the best case scenario about half a century. Osman III wanted results immediately but he went on with Ali Pasha’s plans. The plans were for the Austrian front:
  • Eliminate the Austrian Armies invading Belgrade and Bosnia
  • Move into the Banat and conquer Timișoara
  • Use the town as a base of operation against the Austrians in the East
  • If the Austrians have no success against Prussia, move further North and occupy Pest to prevent any aid to go East.
  • Accept no less than the demands made after the first four points
  • If the negotiations did not succeed, move into Croatia and lay siege on Agram.

The Russian situation was more tough. The Ottomans could not hit the Russian heartland as it was too far away. Fighting battles in the Russian Ukraine makes no sense as the area is hostile and does not affect the Russians. The main battles will be fought in Polish Ukraine and hopefully instigate a coup against August III of Poland-Lithuania. Stanislaw Poniatowski will be informed. Osman III was impressed. He eventually asked what if it doesn’t succeed? Ali Pasha had one answer: “we pray”...
The Armies were prepared. The officers as well. By next year, the Ottoman Empire will be at war and Vienna knows this. There is only a small chance the Ottomans may give in but that is a very slim chance.

Hekimoglu Ali Pasha (1689-1765), considered as a pioneer of the resurging Ottoman Power in the 18th century


Ottoman Statistics on Population: 33,000,000 (1755)
Rumelia: 8,000,000
  • Thrace:
  1. 1.3 million
  2. 50% Muslim, 45% Roman, 3% Armenian, 2% Jewish
  • Silistra:
  1. 1.2 million
  2. 63% Roman, 35% Muslim, 1% Armenian, 1% Jewish
  • Belgrade:
  1. 0.5 million
  2. 75% Roman, 20% Muslim, 2% Jewish, 2% Latin, 1% Armenian
  • Bosnia:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 50% Muslim, 37% Roman, 12% Latin, 1% Jewish
  • Kosovo:
  1. 0.6 million
  2. 60% Roman, 37% Muslim, 2% Jewish, 1% Armenian
  • Shkoder:
  1. 0.3 million
  2. 63% Muslim, 35% Latin, 2% Roman
  • Ioannina:
  1. 1.3 million
  2. 67% Roman, 30% Muslim, 2% Jewish, 1% Laitn
  • Macedonia:
  1. 1.5 million
  2. 63% Roman, 30% Muslim, 6% Jewish, 1% Armenian
  • Morea:
  1. 0.5 million
  2. 80% Roman, 15% Muslim, 2% Latin, 2% Armenian, 1% Jewish
Anatolia: 7,300,000
  • Bursa:
  1. 0.7 million
  2. 70% Muslim, 20% Roman, 7% Armenian, 2% Jewish, 1% Latin

  • Manisa:
  1. 1.0 million
  2. 75% Muslim, 17% Roman, 5% Armenian, 3% Jewish
  • Konya:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 85% Muslim, 9% Roman, 6% Armenian
  • Eskisehir:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 80% Muslim, 12% Roman, 8% Armenian
  • Kayseri:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 80% Muslim, 12% Armenian, 7% Roman, 1% Jewish
  • Sivas:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 70% Muslim, 25% Armenian, 5% Roman
  • Trabzon:
  1. 0.6 million
  2. 67% Muslim, 25% Roman, 7% Armenian, 1% Jewish
  • Erzurum:
  1. 0.6 million
  2. 60% Muslim, 30% Armenian, 6% Roman,
  • Diyarbakir:
  1. 0.7 million
  2. 67% Muslim, 20% Armenian, 10% Assyrian, 3% Jewish
  • Van:
  1. 0.5 million
  2. 50% Muslim, 45% Armenian, 5% Assyrian

Levant: 4,000,000
  • Aleppo:
  1. 1.5 million
  2. 70% Muslim, 15% Roman, 7% Armenian, 6% Coptic, 2% Latin
  • Damascus:
  1. 1.7 million
  2. 80% Muslim, 7% Coptic, 5% Latin, 4% Roman, 3% Armenian, 1% Jewish
  • Quds:
  1. 0.8 million
  2. 60% Muslim, 17% Roman, 10% Jewish, 7% Latin, 3% Armenian, 2% Coptic

Mesopotamia: 4,000,000
  • Mosul:
  1. 1.1 million
  2. 80% Muslim, 10% Assyrian, 4% Armenian, 4% Yezidi, 2% Jewish
  • Baghdad:
  1. 1.7 million
  2. 90% Muslim, 5% Latin, 3% Jewish, 2% Armenian
  • Basra:
  1. 1.2 million
  2. 95% Muslim, 3% Armenian, 2% Jewish

Egypt: 8,000,000
  • Cairo:
  1. 4.5 million
  2. 75% Muslim, 20% Coptic, 2% Latin, 1% Armenian, 1% Roman, 1% Jewish
  • Aswan:
  1. 3.5 million
  2. 85% Muslim, 15% Coptic

Islands: 900,000
  • Cyprus:
  1. 350,000
  2. 70% Roman, 25% Muslim, 5% Latin
  • Crete:
  1. 300,000
  2. 63% Roman, 37% Muslim
  • Dodekanesos:
  1. 50,000
  2. 60% Roman, 30% Muslim, 5% Jewish, 5% Latin
  • North Aegean Islands:
  1. 90,000
  2. 75% Roman, 20% Muslim, 5% Jewish
  • South Aegean Islands:
  1. 30,000
  2. 90% Roman, 5% Latin, 5% Muslim
  • Ionian Islands:
  1. 80,000
  2. 90% Roman, 10% Latin

Capital: 800,000
  • İstanbul:
  1. 800,000
  2. 50% Muslim, 30% Roman, 10% Armenian, 5% Jewish, 5% Latin

The population of the Ottoman Empire had reached 33,000,000 in 1755. It almost reached its population with the borders of 1683. Some areas of the Balkans were heavily Christian after occupation by Christian Nations like Belgrade (1718-1739) and Morea (1684-1714). Islamization of those areas happened with the settlement of Albanians, Slavs and Turks as military personnel. In much lesser degree conversion resulted in the growth of the Muslims. All Eastern Orthodox Christians were named as Roman. The Egyptian Copts and Syrian Orthodox as Coptic. The Roman Catholics as Latin. The Shias and Druzes were included as Muslims even if there were protests as such. This also meant the conscription of Shias in the Ottoman Army. All populations are registered by their religion.
 
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