The Great Mistake - a Winter War escalates TL

LittleSpeer

Monthly Donor
Onkel Willie said:
You could reason the other wat around after this nuclear war. All leaders have witnessed the destructive capabilities of nuclear weapons and might therefore be more reluctant to use them as they fully understand what devastation these weapons can cause. Germany, Britain, France, the USSR and Japan have experienced the destruction of multiple cities and won't want more of that. Similarly, the US suffered from several attacks with nerve agents by missile. The incredible death tolls of WW II and the post-war consequences like radiation sickness and the like could serve as a deterrent.




Well, Nazi Germany only had a partially planned economy IOTL for war industry. The Nazis allowed for businesses and private property to exist. They could influence the Soviet Union in this way. Also, the reform movement in the USSR existed IOTL, but after Khrushchev was sacked, Brezhnev took over and turned all the reforms back which led to stagnation and eventually collapse. Butterflies lead to Khrushchev staying in charge and being succeeded by competent people. As for Germany, Heydrich might have been cruel and oppressive, but he was also quite pragmatic when compared to other hardcore Nazis like Hitler and Himmler.





For Japan, this might be true I suppose. They were all but levelled, but also received a lot of US support post-war as did Britain. Germany had seven cities destroyed IIRC which leaves many more. The agricultural areas in eastern Prussia and in occupied Poland haven't been touched, more so since Goering would be a more 'conventional' dictator than Hitler was. He would oppress the Poles and try to Germanize them, but I doubt he'd exterminate them all. He was more of the Wilhelmine Imperialist faction.

Also look at the economic miracle Germany had in the 50s. Germany had been levelled in OTL's WW II, but still recovered remarkably. Granted, West Germany got Marshall Aid, but this Germany can get help from the Soviet Union. The USSR has barely been touched ITTL. 'Only' two cities nuked and no battles whatsoever fought on its territory unlike during OTL's Barbarossa which devastated the Soviet economy and killed 20 million people, not in part due to horrible war crimes by the Germans and also Stalin's own mistakes. Here he had time to reform his army and do quite good. Germany might not be in great shape, but their Soviet allies can help. Also, Germany has not been occupied ITTL and the Allies haven't tried to strip her from her warmaking industries.

Also, IOTL Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt quite quickly. This won't happen in Japan ITTL since so many nukes were used on them. Germany and the USSR, however, have more industry and resources to work with. The countries that will have suffered the most from loss of human resources are probably China and Japan. The Middle East will probably also have suffered a great deal under Axis occupation in terms of human resources, but eventually resistance will die down. It did in the Baltic states although it took until the 1960s for that to happen. Ideas can die as can religions with enough 'persuasion' by the NKVD and SS/Gestapo. I know Stalin and his successors managed to decrease the number of religious people.




80 million, an underestimation? OTL's WW2 killed 55 million so I thought 80 million would be a fair estimate. I think the deaths of Hitler and Himmler do change things since Goering was more pragmatic (Wilhelmine Imperialist). He wanted more achievable goals like German dominance in Europe and perhaps restoration of the colonies if possible.

Also remember his (in)famous saying "I decide who is a Jew".
Click to expand...
ohhhh smack in the face
keep going but try not to have the whole world end in one big nuclear fireball.
 

Sergio Van Lukenstein

Oh, and if I'm commenting in here, I might as well say something about the TL.

Well done, Onkel Willie! The idea of Germany and the Soviet Union collaborating seems ASB, but if Hitler dies like ITTL, they probably could rationalize the long-term alliance somehow.

The only nitpick (and it is just a nit) I have is that the AK-47 might be butterflied away. Kalashnikov was inspired to invent the AK-47 by his (and the Soviet Union's) experience fighting the Germans on Russian soil in the Great Patriotic War. Since the Soviet Union had no battles fought on its soil, and it experienced so much success in the war, Kalashnikov might end (as he said OTL) designing farm equipment instead.

Driving an AK-47 tractor sounds badass, but sadly, the people ITTL would have no idea why it would sound badass.
 

danwild6

I like having the Baku POD but also would like for France to fight on too keep things more even in the beginning enabling Churchill to (realistically) remain Prime Minister.
 

Wyragen-TXRG4P

Banned
Planned economy?

Lol, with Krushnev and Gorbagechew longer in power, the soviet-union may end upp with less of a planned economy than the US. :D
 

Wyragen-TXRG4P

Banned
Sean Mulligan said:
When did the Soviet Union do that? Certainly not during the war.
Click to expand...


1936: 20,595
1937: 25,376
1938: 90,546
1939: 50,502
1940: 46,665
1941: 100,997
1942: 248,877
1943: 166,967
1944: 60,948
1945: 43,848
1946: 18,154

Total numnber of camp victims, hardly 10, 20 or even 60 millions (sometimes even as high as 110 millions) as some would pretend.
1939 population of CCCP before Polish zone was taken was 196 millions, 1939 population of pre-war Poland (mostly ex-imperial territory) was something like 35 millions.
Population of the Empire before WW1, 174-6 millions (don´t remember exact number). +50 millions in 25 years despite WW1 and the civil war that followed, soviet birth rate must have been pretty amazing for the Germans not to have discovered a half-empty country.
 
Last edited:

The Red

Isn't the estimate of 80 million dead a bit too high? I mean even with the WMD's could many people have died?
 

Wyragen-TXRG4P

Banned
Goering wanted the 1914 borders, not expand Germany to the Urals or even the pacific coasty of Siberia.
Extermination of the jews was implemented after the start of the war with the soviet-union.
Would the US and UK accept millions of jews from continental europe or would they simply refuse them in order to obtain political capital from their repression?

Another scenario for a CCCP-3R cooperation I have thought of is an invasion of the Rhineland into France in 1939 that catches Hitler (and many others) by surprise. The French grow overconfident after their initial victory and fail to fortify the west side of the Rhine and blow up every bride, they get blitzpwned real bad when German forces returns from Poland and are forced to run back to the Maginot Line ina hurry.
It netherless forces Hitler to reconsider the situation in a way he did not until after Stalingrad IOTL and that is before chemical warfare comes in.


The Red said:
Isn't the estimate of 80 million dead a bit too high? I mean even with the WMD's could many people have died?
Click to expand...

Indeed, no eastern front and what it entailed for civilian populations from Stalingrad and Leningrad to Berlin and Vienna.
 
Last edited:

burmafrd

Banned
remember that Stalin had the penal battalions marching into german positions to detonate minefields and to force the German MG positions to reveal themselves. That is execution any way you want to look at it.

I have always figured outside of the war (except for the penal battalions) around 20 million dead from the purges, gulags, the collectivization and starvation that caused, from all causes because of Stalin and his rule.
 

Jotun

Wyragen-TXRG4P said:
1936: 20,595
1937: 25,376
1938: 90,546
1939: 50,502
1940: 46,665
1941: 100,997
1942: 248,877
1943: 166,967
1944: 60,948
1945: 43,848
1946: 18,154

Total numnber of camp victims, hardly 10, 20 or even 60 millions (sometimes even as high as 110 millions) as some would pretend.
1939 population of CCCP before Polish zone was taken was 196 millions, 1939 population of pre-war Poland (mostly ex-imperial territory) was something like 35 millions.
Population of the Empire before WW1, 174-6 millions (don´t remember exact number). +50 millions in 25 years despite WW1 and the civil war that followed, soviet birth rate must have been pretty amazing for the Germans not to have discovered a half-empty country.
Click to expand...

The total number of the victims of Stalinism istn't just the number of Gulag inmates that were killed. Events like the Holodomor and the other USSR-wide famines that were condoned or even caused by the central government. People who just were arrested and died of a 9mm hemmorrhage in the brain stem...need I go on.
You do seem a tad apologetic towards the Stalin-era Soviet Union...
And you also fail to mention that in wide areas of the USSR theat was occupied by the Germans and their allies, the invading troops were more often than not hailed as liberators. Before the madness of racial cleansing began, of course.

Why is it that (too) often, people tend to see the Soviet Union in a more positive light than the Third Reich? IMNSHO, there is not much, if anything, that makes this country any better than Nazi Germany...a genocidal dictatorship is a genocidal dictatorship. Period.

I do have two quotes in my head.
One is from Kurt Schumacher, hardly a person that could be accused of harboring sympathies for National Socialism: "Communists are nothing more than Fascists painted red."
The other ist something one of my PoliSci profs said: "Gentlemen, never forget that National Socialism is a form of socialism."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top