The Great Intermission Mended - A United Western Europe Collaborative Project
- Thread starter Fox-Fire
- Start date
Never trust the Savoy. They may have played the Burgundians and the Angevin against each other and plotted with the Dukes of Tolouse to increase their influence.
Warning, the following are just some thoughts, suggestions and opinions. They aren’t cannon yet and might not be.
I think our bet for the PoD would be around John Lackland's reign. We would be needing to prevent the treaty of Paris that gave him his royal epithet, and large parts of his reign seeing that he had failures that were more systemic than anything. That is quite easy to do with a lazier PoD like another brother inheriting the throne.
In general, we can have as PoDs:
- John being born but having a different personality. In other words, another person with the same name and born at around the same time. Quite easy to do.
- Another brother inheriting the throne. Harder for it to end with an effective reign.
- The empire being split among brothers and later reunited through marriage between cousins or something similar. Even harder.
Then we would need a period of consolidation, only after that we could expand the lands of the Angevins.
Without John’s reign we would lose the Magna Carta. On the other hand, with an empire so diverse, it’s likely that some form of compromise would have to be reached to govern it effectively, it would likely have a lot to do with the inheritance practices as the Normans and the English preferred different approaches, with the former dividing the territory between children as it was with the Frankish Empire and the later having absolute primogeniture.
We would also change the fact that John was excommunicated and thus we could also, if there is a war in France, have the Pope favouring more the Angevin side than in OTL. Even then though, we would need to have the Holy Roman Emperor not opposing the Pope as much, since the HRE was on the side of the Angevins against the French. A weak emperor might be our best bet since a civil war might be too unpredictable and harder to archive, even when it has its advantages for the history. On the plus side, a civil war would weaken the HRE and we would need it as weak as possible so their intervention in France isn’t significative enough, so they can’t take lands and expand even more. Overextension in the HRE only would favour the Angevin Empire if it’s too much and the Empire is already weakened since the difference in population could make up for it.
The Angevin Empire would have a complex relationship with the Pope since the tittle of Emperor of the Romans (or whatever form it takes) would have to pass to them from the HRE. There are a lot of complications from that. An imploded HRE could be the answer, or one hammered down hard enough the title could be passed to the Angevins.
Other important thing, something to think about even if a very long shot. Temüjin was born in 1162. If the conception of John is our PoD, which is the earliest one I suggested, then it means the Mongol Empire could still exist even if vastly different than OTL. Let’s take that for granted for a second. Regardless of the Mongols expanding anywhere else, for example, towards China, we could maybe be having the Mongols raiding into the HRE. Maybe they could focus all their efforts west instead of east. It could be that the Chinese repelled them, partially or wholly. Whatever the case, let’s just say that Temüjin was able to secure his position as the Great Khan and expanded… Could it be possible or too many coincidences have to happen?
I think our bet for the PoD would be around John Lackland's reign. We would be needing to prevent the treaty of Paris that gave him his royal epithet, and large parts of his reign seeing that he had failures that were more systemic than anything. That is quite easy to do with a lazier PoD like another brother inheriting the throne.
In general, we can have as PoDs:
- John being born but having a different personality. In other words, another person with the same name and born at around the same time. Quite easy to do.
- Another brother inheriting the throne. Harder for it to end with an effective reign.
- The empire being split among brothers and later reunited through marriage between cousins or something similar. Even harder.
Then we would need a period of consolidation, only after that we could expand the lands of the Angevins.
Without John’s reign we would lose the Magna Carta. On the other hand, with an empire so diverse, it’s likely that some form of compromise would have to be reached to govern it effectively, it would likely have a lot to do with the inheritance practices as the Normans and the English preferred different approaches, with the former dividing the territory between children as it was with the Frankish Empire and the later having absolute primogeniture.
We would also change the fact that John was excommunicated and thus we could also, if there is a war in France, have the Pope favouring more the Angevin side than in OTL. Even then though, we would need to have the Holy Roman Emperor not opposing the Pope as much, since the HRE was on the side of the Angevins against the French. A weak emperor might be our best bet since a civil war might be too unpredictable and harder to archive, even when it has its advantages for the history. On the plus side, a civil war would weaken the HRE and we would need it as weak as possible so their intervention in France isn’t significative enough, so they can’t take lands and expand even more. Overextension in the HRE only would favour the Angevin Empire if it’s too much and the Empire is already weakened since the difference in population could make up for it.
The Angevin Empire would have a complex relationship with the Pope since the tittle of Emperor of the Romans (or whatever form it takes) would have to pass to them from the HRE. There are a lot of complications from that. An imploded HRE could be the answer, or one hammered down hard enough the title could be passed to the Angevins.
Other important thing, something to think about even if a very long shot. Temüjin was born in 1162. If the conception of John is our PoD, which is the earliest one I suggested, then it means the Mongol Empire could still exist even if vastly different than OTL. Let’s take that for granted for a second. Regardless of the Mongols expanding anywhere else, for example, towards China, we could maybe be having the Mongols raiding into the HRE. Maybe they could focus all their efforts west instead of east. It could be that the Chinese repelled them, partially or wholly. Whatever the case, let’s just say that Temüjin was able to secure his position as the Great Khan and expanded… Could it be possible or too many coincidences have to happen?
What if the mongols successfully invade europe and this empire is the European Horde?
Like the Angevins are vassals/tributaries of the Khanate after it took Europe? I would prefer a native European empire, if not I think their legacy of being the successors of the Roman Empire would be unsustainable.
Perhaps the Mongols forcefully marry into a European ruling dynasty with Roman imperial connections.
My original idea with the commentary about the Mongols was that they could help weaken or collapse the HRE. With France and/or the Angevins in one side, the Italians maybe seeking an earlier independence in the south and the Mongols on the other. Yeah, there’s not much the HRE could do while having a weak emperor or a civil war.
This might be a bit unfitting as from what I've heard, the empire we are planning is meant to be a Roman successor. Nonetheless, I have come up with an idea for a Celtic trade league type state on the European periphery, it is defined as follows:
Emerald - Areas that are the utmost core of the League, includes Ireland, Scotland, Northumbria, Wales, greater Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia and Asturias.
Green - Areas that are almost always associated with the League, includes most of England, Normandy, Calais, greater Euskadi, northern Portugal.
Khaki - Areas that may be major tributaries or often held by the League during its greatest power, includes the Netherlands and Aquitaine.
Brown - Areas that may be held by the league on occasion, or whom the League may be allied to, includes Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg region and Picardy.
Maroon - Everywhere beyond the reach of the League.
I know you've already decided but here's just an idea:
The byzantine have successes in the 6th-early 7th century - islam doesn't spread - and can take back most of mainland italy and coastal spain over the next couple century. Eventually the western part of the empire breaks off.
It would be very centered around the western mediterranean, and safely hold north western africa. Only the two darkest shade of blue imply a high level of control of development. most of the control of the hinterland is just superficial, except in spain, where it is a little bit better. Population is centered around southern italy, the po river valley, andalusia and IRL algeria/tunisia, a relatively high level of stability may allow these to reach high population, enough to rival an eastern roman empire who would still be fighting sassanids/other persians, and maybe christian/nestorian turks.
In modern days this could have a decently high population, North Africa could have in excess of 70-80 million people. Wealthy southern iberia could well hold 40m+. Italy could have japan like population. above 130 million. One could imagine a megalopolis in the po valley the size of tokyo or larger. And sicilly, fertile apulia or campania with 10+ million people each. I could see it having its capital in Syracuse
The byzantine have successes in the 6th-early 7th century - islam doesn't spread - and can take back most of mainland italy and coastal spain over the next couple century. Eventually the western part of the empire breaks off.
It would be very centered around the western mediterranean, and safely hold north western africa. Only the two darkest shade of blue imply a high level of control of development. most of the control of the hinterland is just superficial, except in spain, where it is a little bit better. Population is centered around southern italy, the po river valley, andalusia and IRL algeria/tunisia, a relatively high level of stability may allow these to reach high population, enough to rival an eastern roman empire who would still be fighting sassanids/other persians, and maybe christian/nestorian turks.
In modern days this could have a decently high population, North Africa could have in excess of 70-80 million people. Wealthy southern iberia could well hold 40m+. Italy could have japan like population. above 130 million. One could imagine a megalopolis in the po valley the size of tokyo or larger. And sicilly, fertile apulia or campania with 10+ million people each. I could see it having its capital in Syracuse
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@michaelk156 , @TheKutKu , I think your ideas might have a place in the setting so as long as we can tweak them little bit.
In the case of the Celtic League, I think it could form as a sort of defence pact among peripheral regions surrounding the Angevins, Scotland and Ireland mainly. In a weaker time for the Angevins, it might even include part of Asturias and even Brittany, though the latter might be too much. An exception to this might be if the Angevins are embroiled in a large war and Brittany declares independence, being supported by the Celtic League.
Another idea that comes to my mind, admittedly inspired by EUIV, is that there could be a commercially-motivated war between the Angevins and the Hanseatic League. This could pull in the Celtic League in the side of the Hansa as the Angevins threaten to monopolize the trade in the English Channel and the North Sea either de facto or de jure, explicitly or not. I imagine the League being one of the few remaining power structures in the northern part of Germany if we follow the idea of the alt-Mongol invasion and something the Angevins wish to crush to have more/complete power in the area. If not, then I assume it could be escalated with ease (likely intentionally) from a smaller commercial dispute, likely in the low countries from another dispute or an invasion.
Even with the Mongol invasion, the second point is still applicable. If the Hanseatic League collapses, maybe the Celtic League could take a small part of the mantle. This is especially true if the North Sea (I’m thinking about Scandinavia, Denmark and the Eastern Hansa) unites against the Angevins even if for a little while. Then maybe the Celtic League could flourish in a small golden age.
With the other point in mind, while the PoD is too late for a Byzantine resurgence in that shape, I think the Sicilian side of the Norman dynastic tree could do with some love and expand. After all, we are around the time of the Norman Conquest of Southern Italy. In this case, we could have them expand, maybe later under some sort of patronage from the main branch (the Angevins), but at first under their own momentum. Later we could have the two Norman branches working in tandem and maybe even one inheriting the other’s domains if one of the dynasties falls.
I also like a lot your idea of the Christian Turks and maybe we could even include a fully Christian horde if we follow with the idea of the Mongols. I think that said horde would collapse extremely soon and leave a tremendous mess behind without any chance of a central authority except maybe east of Warsaw at its westernmost point or something of the sort.
What do you all think?
In the case of the Celtic League, I think it could form as a sort of defence pact among peripheral regions surrounding the Angevins, Scotland and Ireland mainly. In a weaker time for the Angevins, it might even include part of Asturias and even Brittany, though the latter might be too much. An exception to this might be if the Angevins are embroiled in a large war and Brittany declares independence, being supported by the Celtic League.
Another idea that comes to my mind, admittedly inspired by EUIV, is that there could be a commercially-motivated war between the Angevins and the Hanseatic League. This could pull in the Celtic League in the side of the Hansa as the Angevins threaten to monopolize the trade in the English Channel and the North Sea either de facto or de jure, explicitly or not. I imagine the League being one of the few remaining power structures in the northern part of Germany if we follow the idea of the alt-Mongol invasion and something the Angevins wish to crush to have more/complete power in the area. If not, then I assume it could be escalated with ease (likely intentionally) from a smaller commercial dispute, likely in the low countries from another dispute or an invasion.
Even with the Mongol invasion, the second point is still applicable. If the Hanseatic League collapses, maybe the Celtic League could take a small part of the mantle. This is especially true if the North Sea (I’m thinking about Scandinavia, Denmark and the Eastern Hansa) unites against the Angevins even if for a little while. Then maybe the Celtic League could flourish in a small golden age.
With the other point in mind, while the PoD is too late for a Byzantine resurgence in that shape, I think the Sicilian side of the Norman dynastic tree could do with some love and expand. After all, we are around the time of the Norman Conquest of Southern Italy. In this case, we could have them expand, maybe later under some sort of patronage from the main branch (the Angevins), but at first under their own momentum. Later we could have the two Norman branches working in tandem and maybe even one inheriting the other’s domains if one of the dynasties falls.
I also like a lot your idea of the Christian Turks and maybe we could even include a fully Christian horde if we follow with the idea of the Mongols. I think that said horde would collapse extremely soon and leave a tremendous mess behind without any chance of a central authority except maybe east of Warsaw at its westernmost point or something of the sort.
What do you all think?
@Fox-Fire I think that sounds good. I'm glad the Celtic League I made up might be of use as I didn't read the whole thread and realise that the basics had already been set for the Empire. You can do what you like with my idea, I only contributed cause I thought this project looked fun and interesting.
i'm happy i could have inspired you! Just a note: if you plan to add christian turks and a stronger norman sicilly/italy, you'd need generally weaker arabs, i guess you could put a different battle of talas but i'm not sure if it's enough. And the norman kingdoms were already ASB IOTL...
What about a stronger Mongol Invasion that is only stopped in Egypt and Constantinople, taking all of Arabia and Anatolia?