The Great Flame of France

I like the way things are going, but ::dons nitpicker's hat::...

The two princes first engaged in a war of the words. Louis portrayed Phillip as tyrannical, power-hungry and driven by the sole purpose of gaining absolute power in France. Phillip, on the other hand, showed Louis to be greedy, prodigal and lustful for power at the expense of his infant nephew. In addition, Phillip was able to employ the best propagandists one could find, and was able to distribute many pamphlets decrying the Duke of Orleans.

So, they're both portraying the other as a tyrant out for their own good and screw the kingdom (or their nephew)?

Seems like this could be worded better - what does Philip mean by Louis being prodigal?

And somehow the phrase "The best propagandists one could find" seems like the wrong word, but I'm not sure how it should be phrased. This is prior to propaganda being a formal thing (as distinct from somewhat ad hoc).

Well established in practice, but usually through more indirect avenue.
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
Were it not for the fact that this France seems set upon a different course, the spectre of a Northern orientated French Navy would be worrisome.

I've always had a dislike for absolutism, in practice.

I'm holding out hope that the Estates General may prove itself more effective ITTL, as a counterpart to the Crown.

You never know, the exigencies of Burgundian accession and the subsequent (?) Civil War may even win them an 'Act of Settlement'.

Falkenburg
 
If France went bigger than OTL, isn't there a risk of a diluted power ?

I mean, France had a tradition of centralization, so a bigger France would push it to its limit, no ? I think this would be hard to rule, especially if you multiply the types of different cultures. Or France could adopt a HRE-style ?
 
If France went bigger than OTL, isn't there a risk of a diluted power ?

I mean, France had a tradition of centralization, so a bigger France would push it to its limit, no ? I think this would be hard to rule, especially if you multiply the types of different cultures. Or France could adopt a HRE-style ?
A HRE style would doom it in the end.
 
perhaps. But it's that plausible ?

The major risk is that there would be too many different identities.

anyway, what about Brittany Navarre,Corsica etc., which were joined to the French crown AFTER the POD. Is the POD will have an effect on them. Personally i would say yes. A France which would look to the east, dominated by a german crown wouldn't even want these provinces.

The idea of France as a kingdom limited by the Pyrenees in the south, the alps and the Rhine, and everything between them is quite recent. It appeared in the late 17th century.
 
Thanks for all the comment everyone, I will begin working on Ch.1 Pt.2 today and post it within the next few days.
Arrix85 said:
France with the Low countries? just the economic clout looks staggering.
Yes, France will be much stronger ITTL, but other states will form to counterbalance it. This will not by any means be a wank.
I like the way things are going, but ::dons nitpicker's hat::...

Quote:
The two princes first engaged in a war of the words. Louis portrayed Phillip as tyrannical, power-hungry and driven by the sole purpose of gaining absolute power in France. Phillip, on the other hand, showed Louis to be greedy, prodigal and lustful for power at the expense of his infant nephew. In addition, Phillip was able to employ the best propagandists one could find, and was able to distribute many pamphlets decrying the Duke of Orleans.
So, they're both portraying the other as a tyrant out for their own good and screw the kingdom (or their nephew)?

Seems like this could be worded better - what does Philip mean by Louis being prodigal?

And somehow the phrase "The best propagandists one could find" seems like the wrong word, but I'm not sure how it should be phrased. This is prior to propaganda being a formal thing (as distinct from somewhat ad hoc).

Well established in practice, but usually through more indirect avenue.
Well, for prodigal I will just give you the dictionary definition:
prodigal |ˈprädigəl|
adjective
1 spending money or resources freely and recklessly; wastefully extravagant : prodigal habits die hard.
2 having or giving something on a lavish scale : the dessert was crunchy with brown sugar and prodigal with whipped cream. See note at profuse .

As for the propaganda, much of this mirrors the actual events that took place in the lead up to the OTL Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War. The Burgundians did use propaganda and publish pamphlets decrying Louis of Orleans in OTL.
Falkenburg said:
Were it not for the fact that this France seems set upon a different course, the spectre of a Northern orientated French Navy would be worrisome.

I've always had a dislike for absolutism, in practice.

I'm holding out hope that the Estates General may prove itself more effective ITTL, as a counterpart to the Crown.

You never know, the exigencies of Burgundian accession and the subsequent (?) Civil War may even win them an 'Act of Settlement'.
Well, it is quite worrisome for the English, but lets just say they will not be at all as powerful in this timeline, though others will be (I have some interesting ideas for Germany, I won't spoil them for everyone). They will lose the HYW earlier and not keep Calais, thus France will have a larger population than OTL entering the modern era, plus all the extra land, and England simply will not be able to keep up.

As for the Estates-General, yes, I am setting the precedent here for a much, much stronger one here and never as absolutist France. One of the Burgundian reforms after the civil war will be to centralize the ES in Paris (it was not, there were usually two, one for the south and one for the north) because the lesser Estates were a major source of opposition to their rise to power, while the major institutions in Paris, the ES and the Parlement, were major sources of support. The ES actually had quite a lot of power at certain points in the HYW, and here they will not give it up.

As for the longterm political development of France, it will be much more north centered (no Italian wars here for reasons ;)) but will certainly have a presence in the med. The *Dutch will be willing participants in the kingdom, and France will gain territorial integrity (no major fiefs, happened mostly during Louis XI and his son in OTL) significantly earlier here, again mostly due to the reforms after the civil war.

BTW, the order of events will be civil war to gain total political dominance, then formal accession.
Inarius said:
The idea of France as a kingdom limited by the Pyrenees in the south, the alps and the Rhine, and everything between them is quite recent. It appeared in the late 17th century.
From the readings I have done about the early middle ages, French kings in fact saw their borders as the Rhine, Alps and Pyrenees before they had any power at all. Their will be an ideal here to remake the Frankish Empire ITTL, and they will actually be fairly successful. I'm not sure about Corsica and haven't settled on Navarre (by this time it was firmly within the French equivalent of a "sphere of influence") but Brittany joining the French crown in a certainty, it is almost impossible to imagine a modern French state without it.

And certainly no HRE-style France ITTL, in fact no HRE at all within a century or two. The Burgundian dynasty will be nothing less than total BAMFs ITTL, on the scale of Samuel L. Jackson in "Pulp Fiction," which is really saying something! Their dynasty will be a great one, and no elections will be held for kingship (that died out in France about the time of Phillip Augustus, although not at an formal date, it simply became that way).

I will continue to try to respond to every substantive comment since I know from experience how disappointing it is to have your comments ignored!
Scipio
 
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From the readings I have done about the early middle ages, French kings in fact saw their borders as the Rhine, Alps and Pyrenees before they had any power at all.

It's true, but at the Renaissance, appeared a new way of claiming territories. As Henri II said, wanting to conquer western Savoy, "where people speak french, it must be the France". The end of a process that initiated itself during the HYW, where this tought was created "the king of England must rule on the english, as the king of France must rule on the french".
 
If France went bigger than OTL, isn't there a risk of a diluted power ?

I mean, France had a tradition of centralization, so a bigger France would push it to its limit, no ? I think this would be hard to rule, especially if you multiply the types of different cultures. Or France could adopt a HRE-style ?
Do note that many of the Burgundian lands, which at the time of the POD are much smaller than they were in 1477, lie in the HRE, meaning that until the French can, "convince" the HRE to part with them they will be administered separately From France due to not being a part of it in the first place. Also, most of the Low Countries being Dutch-speaking and quite wary of central power, I can very well see them keep more autonomy. (for a centralised state anyway)
 
Thanks for backing me up LSCatilina.
Do note that many of the Burgundian lands, which at the time of the POD are much smaller than they were in 1477, lie in the HRE, meaning that until the French can, "convince" the HRE to part with them they will be administered separately From France due to not being a part of it in the first place. Also, most of the Low Countries being Dutch-speaking and quite wary of central power, I can very well see them keep more autonomy. (for a centralised state anyway)
For the territorial growth, the County of Burgundy at least will follow a similar pattern to the Dauphiné, in that it will be joined to the French crown and be de facto no in the HRE, and then become de jure not in the HRE, but with no clear cut point when the shift occurred. The other territories will be contested, and there will be some wars to try and prevent French expansion. In OTL the Emperors tried to contest Burgundian expansion and power, and were totally ineffective in asserting their authority in any way whatsoever. As for the territories, while the actual Burgundian control of the Low Countries only occurred around 1440 (at different specific times around then) the groundwork for taking all those territories had actually been laid by Phillip the Bold by 1390, before the POD. Phillip the Good was a great duke, and someone less competent might not have been able to achieve what he did, but almost all of his gain were caused by pieces of Phillip the Bold's puzzle falling into place.
And yes, the Low Countries will have autonomy, as will the Burgundies, but they will all be integral parts of the French state none the less.
Scipio
 
Oh no i don't think so.

The claim of France with 'nature frontiers' was very political, and wasn't at all "where is spoken French must be french". I don't think anybody would write such a thing before Louis XIV.

Anyway, it wasn't true, as in the South of Loire, nearly nobody spoke french before the beginning of the XIXth century.
And what about Alsace, then ? Or Brittany or Lorraine...

(by this time it was firmly within the French equivalent of a "sphere of influence")

Or Spain
Spain made many attempts (some successful) to take Navarre. I'm not sure a more germanized french crown would want so much as in OTL to keep it.
 
Oh no i don't think so.

The claim of France with 'nature frontiers' was very political, and wasn't at all "where is spoken French must be french". I don't think anybody would write such a thing before Louis XIV.
Henri II did. For Savoy. You can search about it.
Anyway, it wasn't true, as in the South of Loire, nearly nobody spoke french before the beginning of the XIXth century.
And what about Alsace, then ? Or Brittany or Lorraine...
Of course, but for Henri II, it was not about justifying his presence here, but claiming new territories.
 
Yeah, Philip the Bold's territory is mainly Flanders and both Burgundies - of which only the Free County is an Imperial fief. Flanders wasn't even integrated into the HRE until the Habsburgs inherited it.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inarius
Oh no i don't think so.

The claim of France with 'nature frontiers' was very political, and wasn't at all "where is spoken French must be french". I don't think anybody would write such a thing before Louis XIV.


Henri II did. For Savoy. You can search about it.
Quote:
Anyway, it wasn't true, as in the South of Loire, nearly nobody spoke french before the beginning of the XIXth century.
And what about Alsace, then ? Or Brittany or Lorraine...
Of course, but for Henri II, it was not about justifying his presence here, but claiming new territories.


Oh, yes he did. That's not the problem. What i say is that they were only political arguments. When they wanted Savoy, they told "french= France". But when they wanted Franche-compté and Alsace, they said "west of Rhine = France". And when they took a part of Catalogne in 1659...

I have searched yesterday about history of French frontiers, and found a chapter about it : The idea of France within the frontier of Gaul (and, therefore, until the Rhine) didn't exist before the beginning of the XVIIIth century, not before. The rest is only expansion. It doesn't matter why. But without a Louis XIII/Louis XIV style i don't think you can create a so big France, and so early. He ruined the country with war for its expansion.
 
Inarius said:
I have searched yesterday about history of French frontiers, and found a chapter about it : The idea of France within the frontier of Gaul (and, therefore, until the Rhine) didn't exist before the beginning of the XVIIIth century, not before. The rest is only expansion. It doesn't matter why. But without a Louis XIII/Louis XIV style i don't think you can create a so big France, and so early. He ruined the country with war for its expansion.
Yes, in fact I agree. French expansion in this timeline will be much smarter, the groundwork had already been laid before the POD by a group of marriage alliances with the Wittelsbachs. The exact order of annexations will be different, but things will fall into place the same as OTL, with different lines (mainly the Brabantine Burgundians, and Wittelsbachs of Holland) dying out and the Burgundians having the best legal claim to those territories, and here even more power to back this claim up. The French power west of the Rhine will grow quickly enough that by the time a major challenger tries to prevent French expansion, the crown will already have a strong grasp. This is not to say that there will not be a lot of wars in the Rhineland of course, in my opinion this is fairly hard to prevent with a POD after 843.

Also, I know its not relevant to my timeline, but in my opinion to only territory added to France in the 17th century is the Franche Comté (incidentally, ITTL known simply as the County of Burgundy, and never again separated from the Duchy of Burgundy on the other side of the Saône).

Anyway, the main reason for this post is to inform everyone that I will post the next update this weekend. I've been busy this week with my summer job. It will be Ch.1 Pt. 2 "The Great Game." What to expect: The completion of Phillip the Bold's domination of the French government, the start of the civil war, and a step forward in the longterm rise of the Estates-General (although of course no one in the timeline will see it that way at the time, only looking back).
Scipio
 
This is to let everyone know that I do plan on continuing this timeline sometime soon (as in within a month or so). However I am going to Africa for three weeks with a volunteer group tomorrow, so I won't be able to get any more updates out until I come back. When I get back, I may simply restart the timeline depending on how I feel about my work so far (both the few posted updates and the more extensive planning and writing I have done but not published on this site). Sorry to disappoint anyone, I have been doing a lot of research on France in the period so that when I get back to this I will have a stronger grip on the material. I am still very much enamored with the idea of the timeline, I just have not had enough to time to work on it the past month.
Thanks,
Scipio
 
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