The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)

[Redshank Galloglass]

Well...can twits build superpowers and win world wars? Or teach people not to be ashamed of sex? Or create a society without much poverty?

Twats did build superpowers that won world wars. Just look at OTL US businessmen and Soviet Bureaucrats.

Twats also taught people to be more socially liberal. Look at some hippies, for example.

And twats can create societies without much poverty, I'd imagine, since we'd need politicians and social activists all the same as we do now.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Twats did build superpowers that won world wars. Just look at OTL US businessmen and Soviet Bureaucrats.

Twats also taught people to be more socially liberal. Look at some hippies, for example.

And twats can create societies without much poverty, I'd imagine, since we'd need politicians and social activists all the same as we do now.

I think that is a generalization.

Not all OTL Americans are patriotic loons? Some are, but they do not represent the more complex. Most ITTL Americans are not obnoxious twats, just that the twats have more prominence than the normal people just trying to get by.

 

[lord protector 99]

Do you mean to say that non-Amish will try and push Amish kids on rumspringa to abandon their simple lifestyles?

That the state would treat it like a cult, and attempt “de recruitment” efforts.

Or on a lower scale, the people in general would treat them like victims of brainwashing/weirdos.

 

[lord protector 99]

Not all OTL Americans are patriotic loons? Some are, but they do not represent the more complex. Most ITTL Americans are not obnoxious twats, just that the twats have more prominence than the normal people just trying to get by.

I mean, leftist political activism/political activism in general, can produce a certain tendency towards being a self righteous prick. Don’t believe me, talk to a Spart sometime.

Tl;dr: a country full of left sectarian pedants would suck

 

[Bookmark1995]

I mean, leftist political activism/political activism in general, can produce a certain tendency towards being a self righteous prick. Don’t believe me, talk to a Spart sometime.

Tl;dr: a country full of left sectarian pedants would suck

And right wing political views can do the same thing. Not every political activist and not every Christian lover is a prick. And even pricks have moments of humanity.

And again, these aren't pedants, but people who have actually built a society of freedom and equality.

That the state would treat it like a cult, and attempt “de recruitment” efforts.

Or on a lower scale, the people in general would treat them like victims of brainwashing/weirdos.

So would Pennsylvania authorites treat Amishes as if they were like the Walls family from Glass Castle?

And the average Red American would treat them like reactionary hordes?

Yeesh...

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

And right wing political views can do the same thing. Not every political activist and not every Christian lover is a prick. And even pricks have moments of humanity.

And again, these aren't pedants, but people who have actually built a society of freedom and equality.

It depends on the latter. Jello has said that it's questionable how far the UASR has moved from capitalism, what with Markets and all that...

Not all fanatics are bad people. But the UASR likely breeds a culture of smugness (after all, we're the gatekeepers of the revolution, we get to be) that leaves many people put off by Americans.

Like OTL. But worse. With irritating Leftist phrases and words thrown in.

 

[Nyvis]

Not all fanatics are bad people. But the UASR likely breeds a culture of smugness (after all, we're the gatekeepers of the revolution, we get to be) that leaves many people put off by Americans.

So, just like the OTL US with "freedom", but with more truth behind it?

 

[Alexander the Average]

Vis-a-vis the Amish their communal lifestyle and strong history of supporting Native American rights could go some way to endearing them to some revolutionaries ITTL. I could see some sort of countercultrual fetishisation of them and their way of life as a reaction to the overwhelming parts of modernity not unlike how American counterculture IOTL fetishised Native American and East Asian cultures. Maybe a more palatable version of Anarcho-Primitivism could develop that's more focused on emulating their sort of lifestyle (and less on blowing up dams because salmon told them to do it)?

 

[Bookmark1995]

Vis-a-vis the Amish their communal lifestyle and strong history of supporting Native American rights could go some way to endearing them to some revolutionaries ITTL. I could see some sort of countercultrual fetishisation of them and their way of life as a reaction to the overwhelming parts of modernity not unlike how American counterculture IOTL fetishised Native American and East Asian cultures. Maybe a more palatable version of Anarcho-Primitivism could develop that's more focused on emulating their sort of lifestyle (and less on blowing up dams because salmon told them to do it)?

I think the Amish, underneath their polite demeanor, would also find that kind of "flattery" to be more exasperating as mockery. They live the way they live because of their beliefs, not because of some weird fad.

It depends on the latter. Jello has said that it's questionable how far the UASR has moved from capitalism, what with Markets and all that...

Not all fanatics are bad people. But the UASR likely breeds a culture of smugness (after all, we're the gatekeepers of the revolution, we get to be) that leaves many people put off by Americans.

Like OTL. But worse. With irritating Leftist phrases and words thrown in.

Well, they have public housing and free secondary education. So smugness is a small piece of trash compared to their gems.

 

[LHB]

It depends on the latter. Jello has said that it's questionable how far the UASR has moved from capitalism, what with Markets and all that...

Not all fanatics are bad people. But the UASR likely breeds a culture of smugness (after all, we're the gatekeepers of the revolution, we get to be) that leaves many people put off by Americans.

Like OTL. But worse. With irritating Leftist phrases and words thrown in.

I dunno, when you've got nonexistent homelessness, widespread education at a high level, poverty as a bad memory for some and a factoid studied in history for others, racist state-sponsored violence as a thing of the past unlike OTL where it's still a matter requiring mass civil disobedience and a foreign policy that hasn't resulted in scores of horrific dictators I'd say some of that smugness is pretty well-earned. The UASR actually is what the USA thinks it is. Given the widespread prosperity and benefits I'd also imagine there's far less parochialism as it would be much easier for UASR citizens to afford traveling abroad coupled with a lot more people coming from all over the Communist bloc to see, study and work in the UASR.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I dunno, when you've got nonexistent homelessness, widespread education at a high level, poverty as a bad memory for some and a factoid studied in history for others, racist state-sponsored violence as a thing of the past unlike OTL where it's still a matter requiring mass civil disobedience and a foreign policy that hasn't resulted in scores of horrific dictators I'd say some of that smugness is pretty well-earned. The UASR actually is what the USA thinks it is. Given the widespread prosperity and benefits I'd also imagine there's far less parochialism as it would be much easier for UASR citizens to afford traveling abroad coupled with a lot more people coming from all over the Communist bloc to see, study and work in the UASR.

The fact that many UASR citizens can easily travel to their own fellow Red nations easily might also create a giant filter bubble that makes it hard for them to see beyond their own worldview.

 

[Alexander the Average]

I think the Amish, underneath their polite demeanor, would also find that kind of "flattery" to be more exasperating as mockery. They live the way they live because of their beliefs, not because of some weird fad.

Oh I have no doubt of that. See the OTL America's fetishisation of Native and Asian cultural stereotypes. I wonder how issues and debates surrounding cultural appropriation will play out ITTL?

 

[Bookmark1995]

Oh I have no doubt of that. See the OTL America's fetishisation of Native and Asian cultural stereotypes. I wonder how issues and debates surrounding cultural appropriation will play out ITTL?

It depends if the UASR people are educated enough to do more than copy the bare minimum.

Unlike the OTL White Buddhists who forget pre-Communist Tibet was no Shangri-La.

 

[LHB]

The fact that many UASR citizens can easily travel to their own fellow Red nations easily might also create a giant filter bubble that makes it hard for them to see beyond their own worldview.

Possibly but in the pre-revisions there were examples of UASR exchange students living in the UK (even a romantic comedy TTL that was all about that) and UASR tourists in France. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions on them leaving the UASR for the capitalist bloc or vice versa though that probably varied depending on how hot the Cold War was. Either way since the UASR isn't taking the same iron-fisted approached the USSR did regarding spreading the revolution you'd see more variance within the Red Bloc TTL than you would OTL. It also would be an eye-opener in and of itself to travel to countries with a similar socio-economic system who still have considerable cultural, historical and regional divergences like, say, if you have someone from the UASR traveling to China or Argentina.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Possibly but in the pre-revisions there were examples of UASR exchange students living in the UK (even a romantic comedy TTL that was all about that) and UASR tourists in France. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions on them leaving the UASR for the capitalist bloc or vice versa though that probably varied depending on how hot the Cold War was. Either way since the UASR isn't taking the same iron-fisted approached the USSR did regarding spreading the revolution you'd see more variance within the Red Bloc TTL than you would OTL. It also would be an eye-opener in and of itself to travel to countries with a similar socio-economic system who still have considerable cultural, historical and regional divergences like, say, if you have someone from the UASR traveling to China or Argentina.

In that case, maybe UASR residents might be taught to respect other cultures, even capitalist ones.

Since inter-cultural exchange is more common than OTL, maybe UASR people have a nuanced view in the world, and don't behave so condescendingly toward others.

 

[BootOnFace]

I've got to say that the UASR isn't a paradise or even communist. People work jobs to produce commodities for wages, regardless of how extensive social welfare is, it's not much better than places like Norway IOTL. It's a good sight better than the USA, but there is a Cold War going on and a state that rules over the population. Americans would be smug, but there's a lot to criticize. Commodity production and economy still reign supreme in Reds! and I don't see the state withering away at all.

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

Well, I'm not too caught up in the whole "State or no state" thing of Marxian classicalism, but I'm certainly not a fan of Commodity Production.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I've got to say that the UASR isn't a paradise or even communist. People work jobs to produce commodities for wages, regardless of how extensive social welfare is, it's not much better than places like Norway IOTL. It's a good sight better than the USA, but there is a Cold War going on and a state that rules over the population. Americans would be smug, but there's a lot to criticize. Commodity production and economy still reign supreme in Reds! and I don't see the state withering away at all.

I bet in-universe, there would be memes that mock those who claim that the Comintern nations are a "classless society".

One will be a picture of an old man staring at his wrist watch with a caption that says "Communism will be here any minute now".

 

[Lurky]

I bet in-universe, there would be memes that mock those who claim that the Comintern nations are a "classless society".

There will be a picture of an old man staring at his wrist watch with a caption that says "Communism will be here any minute now".

What brave new world is this, where it's the Right endlessly repeating "but real communism hasn't been tried yet"?

 

[LHB]

Well, I'm not too caught up in the whole "State or no state" thing of Marxian classicalism, but I'm certainly not a fan of Commodity Production.

My big thing is who controls the means of production. Until you get post-scarcity fully-automated labor commodity production isn't going to be disappearing anytime soon. So long as the norm in the UASR is democratically controlled workplaces by the people who work in them rather than top-down bureaucracy or profit-maximizing capitalists I'd call that a very good place to be.