The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)
- Thread starter Aelita
- Start date
literally everything you have been told about what communism is was a lie.
join the light side.
the Soviet Union IOTL was state capitalist, not "communist". communism doesn't involve states. actually read Marx.
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We are not denying the atrocities committed by 20th century self-identified communism @Canaan Osborne though this conversation definitely belongs to chat.
Its something that requires further space for political discussion that does not belong to this part of the site.
Just a clue on where we are going with this. When we use the word "communism", we do not deny that this word may identify to a lot of dreadful things you may associate the word with but we also see those dreadful things as deviations from where the word was originally in place in that year 1917 for a variety of reasons.
As someone mentioned years ago here, we are the kind of people that Lenin and Trotsky may put in a gulag as early as 1918.
Ok i am done. Lets end this.
Its something that requires further space for political discussion that does not belong to this part of the site.
Just a clue on where we are going with this. When we use the word "communism", we do not deny that this word may identify to a lot of dreadful things you may associate the word with but we also see those dreadful things as deviations from where the word was originally in place in that year 1917 for a variety of reasons.
As someone mentioned years ago here, we are the kind of people that Lenin and Trotsky may put in a gulag as early as 1918.
Ok i am done. Lets end this.
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Can we please not use that argument, we look like fucking idiots every time we do even if it's technically correct and that's the best kind of correct.
It's very obvious people are talking political movements, not modes of production when they say communism.
Bookmark1995
Banned
It gets worse then that. The Soviets denounced Kronstadt rebels as "foreign counter-revolutionaries", while making deals with foreign governments to ensure its survival.
From its very beginning OTL, Leninism was a wretched joke.
The gulag was created 10 years after the civil war.
Contrary to popular belief, there were many former White Guards among Kronstadtites - this was an uprising united by one slogan, "Soviets without Communists." And under this slogan, everyone gathered - from the anarchists to the right-wing radicals.
Nevertheless, the Bolsheviks were the only ones who had specific goals and objectives, and who could instill discipline in their forces. Many of the warring parties did not differ much from ordinary bandits.
Summary execution then.
And the suppression of the worker councils wasn't real? Stop justifying their atrocities. You can think the revolution was justified without having to go down with them on every single event.
Determination towards the wrong goal is worse than nothing.
There are fundamental differences between the Red Terror and the Stalinist Repressions.
The suppression of the uprising was cruel, and the uprising was provoked by objective reasons - the protracted civil war and economic problems, but the leaders of the uprising had their own interests.
Building socialism is a noble goal. However, war, economic devastation, and mass illiteracy make us look for long and difficult ways. If it were not for the war and the defeat of the Reds in Germany, everything would have been different.
If Germany went red after Kronstadt, I'm confident Russia would need another revolutionary push to get back on a socialist track. The party wasn't going to relinquish power back to the working class after putting it down.
Another coup? After 5 years of fighting gangsters and officers? After the foreign occupation? When is the country of unrest and famine? Where will you find bread? Where do you find raw materials? Where do you get teachers from (80% of the population can neither read nor write, and don't know the simple mathematical operations)? Don't be such an idealist - sometimes you have to retreat or commit unworthy acts. This is the first.
Secondly - in there was a legal internal party opposition, and even independent parties.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Uh...
The term "bandit" was a term the Bolsheviks used quite liberally against their opponents. They called the peasants whose land they pillaged via War Communism "bandits."
The anarchists who the Bolsheviks recruited to fight the Whites were then labeled "counterrevolutionary" by those same Bolsheviks.
I meant another revolution. Not a coup. A coup wouldn't fix anything. Kronstadt meant the union didn't belong to the workers anymore, and they would need to take it back at some point. It could happen much later of course.
The alternative is slow descent back into capitalism.
I think we really should put a stamp to this. This really belongs to chat.
@WotanArgead I get what you are saying man but the point that i am making to Canaan still stands. The majority of commies within Reds! community online belong to either an anarchist or libertarian communist or a left communist line of thinking in which all tendencies have strong disagreements with Leninism for as early as early 1918, prompting the possibility that if we are to be put into the situation of early 1918 Russia that we are going to be in some kind of trouble with the Bolshevik government. What i am trying to explain is that we are trying to portray ourselves as something that Canaan is probably not expecting or has any idea of that there are commies that does not support everything that the USSR does. So whether its a gulag or not it doesnt freaking matter, really. Dont be so sensitive about this. Whether we have some slight misconceptions or misunderstandings or mistakes on certain things about that time period it doesn't really matter to someone like Canaan, if he/she is still reading this. So please.... I am not going to respond to any counter argument about this.
Ok lets really stop guys. We dont want to attract some mod action here. This is political chat territory.
@WotanArgead I get what you are saying man but the point that i am making to Canaan still stands. The majority of commies within Reds! community online belong to either an anarchist or libertarian communist or a left communist line of thinking in which all tendencies have strong disagreements with Leninism for as early as early 1918, prompting the possibility that if we are to be put into the situation of early 1918 Russia that we are going to be in some kind of trouble with the Bolshevik government. What i am trying to explain is that we are trying to portray ourselves as something that Canaan is probably not expecting or has any idea of that there are commies that does not support everything that the USSR does. So whether its a gulag or not it doesnt freaking matter, really. Dont be so sensitive about this. Whether we have some slight misconceptions or misunderstandings or mistakes on certain things about that time period it doesn't really matter to someone like Canaan, if he/she is still reading this. So please.... I am not going to respond to any counter argument about this.
Ok lets really stop guys. We dont want to attract some mod action here. This is political chat territory.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
Communist is one of those words that has been used so often, they lose all meaning.