The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)

And thus I catch up to Reds! The TL that made me a dirty commie as Male Rising made me not an islamophobe (fuck Bill Maher). Truly an impressive look into how communism could've worked if it had a tolerance of ideological diversity, Democratic management of the economy, and had arisen in a country with an actual history of democracy.
These days, main development and discussion of this TL has moved to Sufficient Velocity. @Aelita and the collective are heavily rewriting it, going into more detail, and have gone as far as 1934 at the moment (plus some relevant cultural vignettes from the later times).
 
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Since pt 3 of Reds is still updated around the same time as the pt 1-2 rewrite in SV, I wonder if SV's pt 3 will just be cross-posts from the writing group's content here.
 
Since pt 3 of Reds is still updated around the same time as the pt 1-2 rewrite in SV, I wonder if SV's pt 3 will just be cross-posts from the writing group's content here.
There's going to be some tweaks, particularly with the Asian theater, and probably some new stuff that'll end up in there.
 
(Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread)
Since
JFK is now the one who stays behind
I wonder if he will be Primer in TTLs missile crisis
 

xsampa

Banned
The main weakness of the FBU is that it depends on keeping (former) colonies in line, especially India, and making sure that its protectorates like Arabia and Indonesia (if it's not a dominion) don't drift off. Of course, they can play the "traditional culture and religion" card but the existence of religions and popular culture in the Comintern is going to slowly chip away at loyalty to London-Paris. Without the colonies and WEurope, the FBU is nothing.
 
The main weakness of the FBU is that it depends on keeping (former) colonies in line, especially India, and making sure that its protectorates like Arabia and Indonesia (if it's not a dominion) don't drift off. Of course, they can play the "traditional culture and religion" card but the existence of religions and popular culture in the Comintern is going to slowly chip away at loyalty to London-Paris. Without the colonies and WEurope, the FBU is nothing.

The local colonial elites have little reasons to like the communists though, and the FBU can play that up.
 
The local colonial elites have little reasons to like the communists though, and the FBU can play that up.
I've always thought the real weakness of the FBU, assuming the UASR does not turn into a scary dystopia, is that there is no rational reason for the working people of the developed European core of the FBU to put up with capitalism when they can see a decently free, comfortable, democratic and attainable socialist alternative works fine. It makes the most sense if the FBU is in fact deeply totalitarian, and information is rigidly controlled, and the degree of social terror brought to bear on dissidents is tremendous. The idea that it can buy off the working classes by welfare and regulatory reforms really puts the capitalists themselves at such a disadvantage in so many ways, I can't see the system holding the Red wolf from the door for very long; the level of taxes and regulation required would undermine the legitimacy of market capitalism even among the capitalist owning classes, and notably even more among the hired technocrats who actually run corporations.

In the former colonized nations it is actually easier to see how capitalist hegemony is upheld; there the task of building up grossly lopsided economies shaped by the demands of the industrialized European core is daunting, standards of living are so low that it would be relatively easy to scare people with some modicum of privilege into closing ranks to resist radicalism, as long as the old European racist system is relaxed in favor of coopting these local elites. But of course successfully impressing on the "middle" classes that their comfort and status depend on supporting the pretenses of private property is another way of saying these classes are coopted into totalitarian--or if one wants to indulge the hairsplitting of people like Jeanne Kirkpatrick, "authoritarian"--mindsets. The masses can be turned against Red militance in various ways, by religious traditionalism (but that piles up the kindling for some kind of theocratic reaction!), by low level cooption into the lower middle classes and the credible promise of this kind of success for the most serviceable dangled before the working classes, by scaremongering, by bloody shirt waving insofar as the Reds do come into conflict with soldiers and police recruited from the working classes. But many of these techniques can boomerang and unless again the living standards of working people are kept above certain thresholds of misery AND are seen to be credibly rising, they will be stretched. One very key factor that keeps workers in such poorer countries in line is that the machinery of repression need not be maintained solely from resources squeezed out of these same people, not directly anyway--OTL the capitalist powers kick back a certain share of the profits they skim off Third World nations in the form of "military aid" and "security assistance aid" whereby nations are given credit and access to high tech weapons and police methods, their paramilitary agents of repression trained in Northern facilities, "advisors" and Northern intelligence agencies horning in and giving their client states advice and direction as well as the means of repression.

So it comes back to the FBU core again. The FBU leading developed nations must pay for both large welfare programs and other means of distracting their own working classes, and divert still more resources toward a carrot and stick strategy of similarly keeping order in much poorer countries too. It is quite a juggling act and meanwhile if any of the less well off people in either the Third or First World FBU sphere can travel to the UASR or even the Latin American Comintern nations, or even as this ATL is being reformatted toward, the Soviet branches either, they will see a much more enticing picture than the gray and scary Stalinism of OTL. It might be possible to persuade people "hey, the USA was very rich before the revolution, they can't possibly afford to spread it around to the whole world," but the trajectory of Red Latin America will gainsay that. And the level of taxation required to maintain a competitively tranquilizing welfare state and the higher standard of living for the working classes this will demand will weaken the commitment of people from middle class strata to the idea that they will surely lose if Red revolution triumphs. And if in fact hard repression, even in limited and apologized for forms, against subcategories deemed somehow deviant and exceptional only, is undertaken out of necessity, then the moral standing of the FBU system as somehow founded on a more just order suffers erosion in the higher levels, and sows dragon's teeth of quite bitter, committed opposition among the targeted scapegoats who truly do have nothing to lose but their chains (and whippings).
 
I've always thought the real weakness of the FBU, assuming the UASR does not turn into a scary dystopia, is that there is no rational reason for the working people of the developed European core of the FBU to put up with capitalism when they can see a decently free, comfortable, democratic and attainable socialist alternative works fine. It makes the most sense if the FBU is in fact deeply totalitarian, and information is rigidly controlled, and the degree of social terror brought to bear on dissidents is tremendous. The idea that it can buy off the working classes by welfare and regulatory reforms really puts the capitalists themselves at such a disadvantage in so many ways, I can't see the system holding the Red wolf from the door for very long; the level of taxes and regulation required would undermine the legitimacy of market capitalism even among the capitalist owning classes, and notably even more among the hired technocrats who actually run corporations.

Kinda agree here. Social Democracy is costly, and as the colonies catch up and the relationship with them becomes fairer because of their increased power, the FBU won't be able to extract as much wealth from them to pay for it. But by then, it will have been in opposition to the red block for a long time, differences in culture and thought will have grown a lot and the hostility will be deeply ingrained. Just look at how America reacts to the mere mention of socialism OTL, even after the cold war ended. It seems more likely they try developing their own way than look to the people they've been taught to hate for so long.
 


Kinda agree here. Social Democracy is costly, and as the colonies catch up and the relationship with them becomes fairer because of their increased power, the FBU won't be able to extract as much wealth from them to pay for it. But by then, it will have been in opposition to the red block for a long time, differences in culture and thought will have grown a lot and the hostility will be deeply ingrained. Just look at how America reacts to the mere mention of socialism OTL, even after the cold war ended. It seems more likely they try developing their own way than look to the people they've been taught to hate for so long.

Let's also remember that the FBU has nukes to defend against serious threats. ITTL, people say if nuclear weapons hadn't been invented, the final showdown between capitalism and communism would've taken place, and the world would've been united under the kind hand of American socialism.
 
Let's also remember that the FBU has nukes to defend against serious threats. ITTL, people say if nuclear weapons hadn't been invented, the final showdown between capitalism and communism would've taken place, and the world would've been united under the kind hand of American socialism.

Oh, we're not saying the FBU will get invaded, just that it's less sunny at home than people could assume. Nuclear weapons won't save you from internal agitation.
 
Oh, we're not saying the FBU will get invaded, just that it's less sunny at home than people could assume. Nuclear weapons won't save you from internal agitation.

I suppose. But then again, if the British and French establishments ended up facing no consequences for colluding with the Nazis, then it probably isn't surprising.

I guess loyalty to King and Country is pretty strong ITTL.
 
I suppose. But then again, if the British and French establishments ended up facing no consequences for colluding with the Nazis, then it probably isn't surprising.

I guess loyalty to King and Country is pretty strong ITTL.

I think that's a bit too early for the kinds of problems we were talking about.
 
I think that's a bit too early for the kinds of problems we were talking about.

I know. You're arguing that overtime, the continued prosperity and freedom of the Red bloc would make the masses of Western Europe wake up.

But OTL, the Nordic model hasn't convinced enough Americans to think of socialism as anything but Soviet totalitarianism.
 
I know. You're arguing that overtime, the continued prosperity and freedom of the Red bloc would make the masses of Western Europe wake up.

But OTL, the Nordic model hasn't convinced enough Americans to think of socialism as anything but Soviet totalitarianism.

No. I'm arguing that social democracy is less sustainable without being able to exploit the colonies. The FBU has to juggle the double burden of keeping the empire together and keep its population happy enough to comply. And as the colonies grow stronger, something we know will happen, they're going to have less means to do so. So it's likely it will have to tighten its hold rather than just use bread and circuses to keep things going.
 
No. I'm arguing that social democracy is less sustainable without being able to exploit the colonies. The FBU has to juggle the double burden of keeping the empire together and keep its population happy enough to comply. And as the colonies grow stronger, something we know will happen, they're going to have less means to do so. So it's likely it will have to tighten its hold rather than just use bread and circuses to keep things going.

In other words, the FBU is a creaky structure, and the UASR could easily send it crashing down with a push.
 
IMHO, Social-Democracy doesn't need resource extraction or a colonial empire, just a democratic, cohesive, egalitarian society with good management and a good integration with international trade (and a regulated and complementary private and public sectors).
 
IMHO, Social-Democracy doesn't need resource extraction or a colonial empire, just a democratic, cohesive, egalitarian society with good management and a good integration with international trade (and a regulated and complementary private and public sectors).

Big doubt. Capitalism in general needs to expand to keep working. Reducing its profits to keep the population happy puts even more pressure on the economic system.

Also, how you can be egalitarian under capitalism is a mystery.
 
With regards to Europeans having an example of a more prosperous Communist system I would point out that the Capitalist powers are likely to be in a stronger position ITTL at the start of the Cold War. The American revolution gives them a boost due to capital flight and being absolved from American debts and during the war it's the Comintern countries in Eurasia and Latin America that bear the most of the brunt of the fighting and are going to be shouldering the burden of rebuilding after the war. For a while I could see the FBU appearing to be better off for the average person than the Comintern.
 
If communism can provide people a good standard of living and democracy without gulags what will be the Capitalist arguments against it? Private property as a human right. Decadence? What will the arguments against a democratic workers management system be?
 
If communism can provide people a good standard of living and democracy without gulags what will be the Capitalist arguments against it? Private property as a human right. Decadence? What will the arguments against a democratic workers management system be?
I can think of quite a few right off the top of my head.

First, pretty much anything related to inequality as long as there is a dangling carrot of social mobility: conspicuous consumption, privileged status of some white collar jobs like doctors or lawyers, even possibility to use some purely servile work that has been eliminated in the UASR.

Second, consumerism. I suppose that the FBU citizens would see the UASR lifestyle as frugal, even spartan.

Third, political apathy. Involvement in the public life is basically a civic duty in the UASR, one wouldn't probably get in trouble by avoiding it, but there will be quite some calling out and peer pressure. FBU always offers its citizens blissful ignorance as an option.
 
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