The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)

Might this be a good path to in independent Indonesia after the war? If Holland officially formally handed them over, then there's no "rightful" colonial government to return it to.

Honestly though, I think leaving it in Dutch hands (and out of Japan's) causes Japan using the "southern strategy" to make more sense, since they want those resources. Maybe just have UK and France pressure Holland into accepting a "trade deal" with japan that is a huge ripoff? Still lets them have major naval buildup, but cannot into autarky.
 
Two very big issues with this entire scenario:

1. Greater Anglo-Japanese cooperation would mean that the navy radicals would never have adopted the anti-Western views of IJA, and thus Nanshin-ron is basically dead outside of crackpots who dreamed of Pacific delights. The amount of budget you've already given IJN for their ships is enough to satisfy any radical who might hae worried about IJA getting a lions share of the budget through the war in China. I mean really, you just butterflied away Japan's entire trajectory towards militarism with this sort of deep cooperation.

2. Okay, so Manchuria is far more developed, in line with the original plan of industrialization. You do realize that this means Japan could become virtually autarkic? Korea by itself had the biggest tungsten mine in history, and Korean coal was good enough to be used for coal liquidation on a larger scale. This isn't even going into the iron of Manchuria that was enough to satisfy all of Japan's increased needs if we have the development being on scheduled.


I mean sure, you can still have navy radicals pushing for Nanshin and Japan being such utter incompetents that they could not develop Manchurian independence to make it virtually independent outside of some part of their oil needs, but that's really gaming the situation for a predetermined result. I cannot really agree with this level of shallow butterflies, but then again I'm not a writer of this TL.
1. That cooperation is increasingly geopolitically strained. The Japanese government ITTL was well aware of Britain's deteriorating relationship with Germany in mid-1941 onward, as well as some of the back channel negotiation with the UASR, matters that Japan was not directly informed or consulted on. They, like any great power, had contingency plans for if an ally betrayed them, and in 1942 they decided that once America and Britain became co-belligerent against Germany, they were on the clock so to speak.

Japan is utterly reliant on oil from the Indies. British and French possessions sit astride this lifeline. So they struck first rather than for the two to draw closer together and slowly strangle Japan. It is the kind of decision making that typified imperial foreign policy IOTL, and like IOTL the centralization of power behind a fascist belief structure meant that they could never accurately assess the strength of their enemies. Belief in a vitalist 'national spirit', the cult of action, and the notion of the enemy as simultaneously immense but also frail and decadent assures this miscalculation.

The roots of Imperial Japan's fascism are quite deep in the structure of the state, the military, the bureaucracy and the zaibatsu. The violent relationship between subject nations and the imperial system certainly predates the 30s, as did Japanese racialist attitudes. And while some in the IJN might genuinely believe in deep cooperation with Great Britain, many others would treat the alliance as a pact among wolves to be discarded when it no longer suited Japan's interests.

2. And this is important. But as I mentioned, the major theme of Japanese decision-making in the 40s is securing what they've already achieved, and finding some way to finish subduing China. The problem is that these needs of the empire are often conflicting. The decision to go to war with the UASR was determined entirely because of the American's continued support financially, materielly, and even with volunteer units, of the Republic of China. This severed direct trade routes and hindered covert support of guerillas. Their undeclared border war with the Soviet Union later that year began over similar terms, and it was at least nominally successful under the terms of the new Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Treaty; it removed all American forces from east of the Urals, and blocked the overland supply of China through the Soviet Union.

And they are confronted with two conflicting treaty obligations. As members of the Anti-Comintern Axis, Germany and Italy had been pressuring Japan into entering the war since the very beginning, and important technical trade in patents, and quality machine tools was becoming threatened by it. On the other hand, Britain has been cooling their relationship with Japan since 1938 because it's not a good look for a democratically accountable government to be too closely associated with an army that's putting babies on bayonets.

The choice made sense at the time. France had switched sides, and the colonies that had resisted the coup were easy pickings, and the sun seemed to be setting on the British Empire, now tied to the hip with the Communists at war with Japan's ally.

I think it's important to note that sometimes people just completely miscalculate. As has been presented so far in the timeline, the UASR has pretty much bungled the war in the Pacific for over a year and a half, failing to do much but lose a fair number of ships during a period when they actually do need every ship available. Because until Midway, it's treated as a sideshow theater. The Japanese government underestimates its enemy's resolve, believing Britain will sue for peace after a good shellacking in both Europe and the Pacific. And that outcome was more likely than the British government let on to the populace, even though the odds were against it.
 
Japan was both very aware of the strength of the USA and utterly delusional about its prospects because it believed that warrior spirit and skill could overcome any American and British superiority in manufacturing. The younger, academy trained officers who were filling up the ranks of Japan's officer corps were quite frankly madmen drunk on manifest destiny rhetoric. They knew that their goals were incompatible with the territorial integrity of every country around them, they knew it'd mean fighting basically everyone in the Indian and Pacific Oceans simultaneously and that enemies like the USSR, the USA, and the British could outproduce them handily. But they really couldn't care less, believing that willpower could overcome material disadvantage and build the empire of the rising sun. Many even believed that it was Japan's destiny to go to war with the likes of America anyway.

In 1942 it seems like a new order is dawning, where the crusty old British Empire and the Soviet union will be swept away for a vast new tripartite fascist empire; Italy in the south; Germany in the north, Japan in the east with France and Brazil as part of it and perhaps Britain being allowed to join it after being drubbed enough. With the British Empire in Africa and the middle east taking a drubbing from Italy and friends and Germany and its allies firmly locking Britain out of the continent while German bombers are bombarding the home island itself and with Brazil at the height of its ambitions, it seems like Britain will probably give up shortly, they just need to give Britain a little push and they'll be able to swipe away Malaya, the Philippines, and the Raj and perhaps even transfer Australia and New Zealand from the Commonwealth to the Co-Prosperity Sphere.

They believe that the people of the Raj will gladly welcome them once they march in, that the Australians and New Zealanders are soft, weak people who will surrender after a few months of submarine and surface raider warfare to cut them away from their imports, and that the Americans are lazy, indulgent hedonists who lounge around mooching off of welfare and having sex with easy women who would quail at the prospect of fighting the steely Japanese warrior born and bred in an environment of austerity and discipline. They beat the Russians before and Hitler is mauling the Soviet Union in battle after battle so once the business elsewhere is taken care of they believe it will be a simple matter to deliver the USSR a knockout blow with a return to the far east once China and the Nanshin-Ron territories are fully under Japanese hegemony.

Looking at the progress of the war from 1940-1943 it wouldn't be too hard to draw this conclusion if it's what you want to believe is going to happen.
 
Japan is utterly reliant on oil from the Indies.

Which strains credibility, given what we know of Japanese efforts to obtain oil in Manchuria (both drilling and shale oil) and the fairly advanced coal liquidation process development. In other words, having Japan both economically more developed yet set back in this aspect is contradictory short of somehow making things even more incompetent than OTL.


British and French possessions sit astride this lifeline. So they struck first rather than for the two to draw closer together and slowly strangle Japan. It is the kind of decision making that typified imperial foreign policy IOTL, and like IOTL the centralization of power behind a fascist belief structure meant that they could never accurately assess the strength of their enemies. Belief in a vitalist 'national spirit', the cult of action, and the notion of the enemy as simultaneously immense but also frail and decadent assures this miscalculation.

The roots of Imperial Japan's fascism are quite deep in the structure of the state, the military, the bureaucracy and the zaibatsu. The violent relationship between subject nations and the imperial system certainly predates the 30s, as did Japanese racialist attitudes. And while some in the IJN might genuinely believe in deep cooperation with Great Britain, many others would treat the alliance as a pact among wolves to be discarded when it no longer suited Japan's interests.

Actually, all of those developed in the 1920s, way past the POD, especially with the different Great War and economic development. The core component that managed to link everything together was that there was no improvement in the people's welfare, which led to the radicalization of the young officers. With the greater deepening of the Japanese economy from the increased investments, the externally oriented radicalization would turn more towards worker's radicalization, thus pushing the road to revolution much further. This means no 2.26 Incident, no consolidation of power towards the imperialist factions, less likelihood of going full-blown "Anglo-American devils" topped with "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere."


I mean yes, the same end result can be achieved by pushing Japan into a corner, but we're going to have to do a little better than basically put Japan on the same footing as OTL. We're dealing with an entirely different economical, technological, and ideological environment.
 

Bulldoggus

Banned
Yes, and to be entirely fair; the Allies also have their own unthinkable planned. Though their plan mostly calls for unifying Italy, Spain, and Germany under their control, putting Poland back in the hands of Capitalists to keep the Soviets as far away as possible, and seeing if they can take anymore or if they should just get a peace treaty with that.

Patton's plan though is more "LISBON OR BUST"
So is Spain in the Entente or the Comintern? I doubt the FBU would consent to enemies on all sides.
 
So is Spain in the Entente or the Comintern? I doubt the FBU would consent to enemies on all sides.
There is a small Red Spain (augmented by the former Spanish African territories), I believe about a third the size of the original Spain, and the rest part of a larger "Kingdom of Spain".
 

Bulldoggus

Banned
There is a small Red Spain (augmented by the former Spanish African territories), I believe about a third the size of the original Spain, and the rest part of a larger "Kingdom of Spain".
Sweet. Is it too much to hope that the Kingdom has Barça?
 
That sounds like more of a Redwank than something that would actually happen.
I mean, the FBU could just ignore it, but America was heavily invested in the Spanish Civil War ITTL, and is probably heavily invested in what happens to their ally there. That's why that concession probably happened, and given the somewhat warm post-war climate, it'll probably stand.

Also, they aren't establishing a socialist state. The Spanish Free Soviet was already there due to the TTL Spanish ceasefire, and they are reestablishing it.
 
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Look at how the Western Allies threw Eastern Europe and North Korea under the bus.
Well, I'd agree with you, but Spain is Britain's major front in the war and thus they have majority control over what happens in the theater, sure they hate fascism but a relatively powerful British Empire letting the Yanks throw their weight around in their own theater of operations is kinda eyebrow raising and vnot a good characteristic of a opposing superpower. I'd think the British response would be to stiffen their lip and tell the Americans to "Get to fuck".
 
Well, I'd agree with you, but Spain is Britain's major front in the war and thus they have majority control over what happens in the theater, sure they hate fascism but a relatively powerful British Empire letting the Yanks throw their weight around in their own theater of operations is kinda eyebrow raising and vnot a good characteristic of a opposing superpower. I'd think the British response would be to stiffen their lip and tell the Americans to "Get to fuck".

They could do that, but, as they say, "a deal's a deal."

It's also not going to look good, if they go back on a concession they made for a larger anti-fascist alliance. Especially since it's implied that post-war relations will be relatively warm between the Labor-SFIO FBU and Comintern.
 
Well, I'd agree with you, but Spain is Britain's major front in the war and thus they have majority control over what happens in the theater, sure they hate fascism but a relatively powerful British Empire letting the Yanks throw their weight around in their own theater of operations is kinda eyebrow raising and vnot a good characteristic of a opposing superpower. I'd think the British response would be to stiffen their lip and tell the Americans to "Get to fuck".
They could do that, but, as they say, "a deal's a deal."

It's also not going to look good, if they go back on a concession they made for a larger anti-fascist alliance. Especially since it's implied that post-war relations will be relatively warm between the Labor-SFIO FBU and Comintern.

Also, if I am not mistaken, isn't Spain divided between a Falangist Spanish State under General Sanjuro, and the Spanish Free Soviet Republic, which controls Navarre, Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia and the Baeleric Islands.? It's not like FBU is giving up all of Spain to the Reds anyway.
 
Also, if I am not mistaken, isn't Spain divided between a Falangist Spanish State under General Sanjuro, and the Spanish Free Soviet Republic, which controls Navarre, Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia and the Baeleric Islands.? It's not like FBU is giving up all of Spain to the Reds anyway.
Right, just seems a little bit odd to me that an anti-communist superpower would bend so much to a Communist superpower, even if they're temporarily allying to bash the flash, in their own theater of operations to boot.
It's also not going to look good, if they go back on a concession they made for a larger anti-fascist alliance. Especially since it's implied that post-war relations will be relatively warm between the Labor-SFIO FBU and Comintern.

So basically the Americans have the British by the balls.
 
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