Tbf I think that if we get a religious war the Netherlands would most likely align with considering that the protestant realms were in the north for good reason unless we get a really good reformation, and even that may not be enough. I think even if the duke of Brabant is catholic himself he would have a big section of the population that are protestant and unlikely to want to fight with the Catholic Germans.

Phillip going to war is defo something I'm interested in seeing hmmmm. I am curious of the inciting incident tho.
Well Martin Luther is gonna nail the 95 theses on October 31 in 1517 as otl and we'll see what goes after that.

The inciting accident will be in 1505, but the groundwork is already laid. See chapter 12 for foreshadowing.
 
Tbf I think that if we get a religious war the Netherlands would most likely align with considering that the protestant realms were in the north for good reason unless we get a really good reformation, and even that may not be enough. I think even if the duke of Brabant is catholic himself he would have a big section of the population that are protestant and unlikely to want to fight with the Catholic Germans.
Align themselves with what? Give me more info, you might be the creator of the Flemish Reformation here!
 
Ah that makes sense.
It's more that everyone around them except the French are protestant around the Netherlands, and the French fought with the protestants in otl, and the British are pro protestant. Declaring themselves for the Austrian Hapsburgs is a recipe for allowing themselves to be quartered by everyone in the area.

At most I can see the dukes of Brabant being tolerant towards catholics. I could defo see the more radical Calvinist protestant groups and memonites be an important force in colonisation ittl, and I am interested in seeing how they develop.

Tbf one very big difference you can make is for Erasmus to not write his works or write about how to change the Catholic church rather than just criticizing them.
 
It's more that everyone around them except the French are protestant around the Netherlands, and the French fought with the protestants in otl, and the British are pro protestant. Declaring themselves for the Austrian Hapsburgs is a recipe for allowing themselves to be quartered by everyone in the area.

At most I can see the dukes of Brabant being tolerant towards catholics. I could defo see the more radical Calvinist protestant groups and memonites be an important force in colonisation ittl, and I am interested in seeing how they develop.

Tbf one very big difference you can make is for Erasmus to not write his works or write about how to change the Catholic church rather than just criticizing them.
There is nothing that says England will go protestant in this TL like olt. And I can see the dukes being sympatic towards protestants.

I'll consider the Erasmus thing. Thanks for the tips!
 
There is nothing that says England will go protestant in this TL like otl. And I can see the dukes being sympatic towards protestants.
I think there are many reasons why England went protestant, but I don't think they'll exactly support the Spanish Hapsburgs even if they stay out of religious conflicts. England also should amass a bunch of protestants and have the kings be religiously tolerant.
I'll consider the Erasmus thing. Thanks for the tips!
tbf I think having the two Philips be mostly neutral and switching to protestantism because of the neighbouring german states and France helping them makes the most sense. Having Brabant be religiously tolerant until the French use them as a fifth column is defo a possibility.

Erasmus was important for the protestant reformation in the Netherlands, and considering that you have him teach the current reigning Philip I defo see Philip having protestant sympathies unless you want things to go different from otl, and as I've said having the Dutch not be affiliated with the North German states would most likely mean dismemberment by the French and North German states unless the religious conflict happens due to France and everything has to be reconsidered.
 
I think there are many reasons why England went protestant, but I don't think they'll exactly support the Spanish Hapsburgs even if they stay out of religious conflicts. England also should amass a bunch of protestants and have the kings be religiously tolerant
In this TL there are no spanish Hapsburgs either, they are away in Austria and Hungary doing their thing. But yes, England might eventually go protestant. I kind of have a loose scheme where religious turmoils builds up to a momentum where the country implodes in 1612, not helped by two princes who hates each other on either side, a tragic love story and a possible false heir. Like I said earlier, the York dynasty is gonna implode in hellfire that year. Drama!

tbf I think having the two Philips be mostly neutral and switching to protestantism because of the neighbouring german states and France helping them makes the most sense. Having Brabant be religiously tolerant until the French use them as a fifth column is defo a possibility.
Well the current Philip (Philip IV) isn't gonna live to see any reformation as his death date is set for 30 October in 1517, the day before Martin Luther publish the 95 Theses. His son Philippe (Philip V) however is gonna have to content with the reformation and I imagine that he'll be religiously tolerant for a long while. What the County of Burgundy still down south is gonna do however with the reformation is another kettle of fish...

Erasmus was important for the protestant reformation in the Netherlands, and considering that you have him teach the current reigning Philip I defo see Philip having protestant sympathies unless you want things to go different from otl, and as I've said having the Dutch not be affiliated with the North German states would most likely mean dismemberment by the French and North German states unless the religious conflict happens due to France and everything has to be reconsidered.
Erasmus is more of a tutor to Philippe, the ducal heir. So Philip IV isnt gonna live to make protestant sympathies. So there is definitely gonna become more leanings towards Protestantism or at least trying to clean up the churches and religious organisations from within to prevent complete disasters. Plus Philip V is gonna die in 1540, so perhaps the harsh brunt of the reformation happens after his death. But on the whole, Philip IV is gonna expand his dutchy more up north, so I can imagine they will be more focused on the northern and north-east parts for a while.

How does this sound?
 
The fact that the Low countries went up in flames, in the 16th century, was the response of the leaders to the relative small number of Protestants. The reponce was extremly harsh which in turn gave way to extremist of the Protestant side resulting in a spiral of violance.
The harsh response to theProtestants even aliënatie the leaders from the majority of Catholics, since in many cases the people who where tortured ( and heard screaming) in the cellars of the city halls and later burned alive, where their neighbourgh who were know as decent people.
The leadership of OTL did had little connection with the population of the realm they governed.
Margareth of Parma was lady born in the low countries how, raised in Italy and by this alianation her from her subjects. Also many of her, influential, advisors like Antione Granville even had some sort of dislike to the people of the Low Countires even if they belong to the upper ranks of nobiity.
Although a leaders ship more connected to the realm they govern is not nesesary a reason to treat dissidents hars it certainly made them think twice.
One of the major factors of the revolution and civil war erupting in Flanders in 1566, was the economic crises, causing unemployment, combining with a sharp increase in the cost of living while at the same time the Church were, nearly blackmailing, the population with the inulgence sceme in order to fund their ever increasing whealthy way of life and the megalomanic Saint Piere Basilic in the far away Rome.

-People start to read the (printed) bibles and try to give their faith their own interpretation. ( Arround 90% of the Flemish citizens could read and write in 1500)
-This people were prosecuted and tortured which make them harder in their faith and shocked the majority.
-Increasing poverty and inequality made some of those protestants even more extreme and resulting in some real extremist.
- These extremist, like Sebastiaan Matte, where not shy of extreme actions and violence, destroying statues of saints and paintings.
- Some of those extremist developed a world view close to otl comunism, see Jan van Leyden.
 
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The fact that the Low countries went up in flames, in the 16th century, was the response of the leaders to the relative small number of Protestants. The reponce was extremly harsh which in turn gave way to extremist of the Protestant side resulting in a spiral of violance.
The harsh response to theProtestants even aliënatie the leaders from the majority of Catholics, since in many cases the people who where tortured ( and heard screaming) in the cellars of the city halls and later burned alive, where their neighbourgh who were know as decent people.
The leadership of OTL did had little connection with the population of the realm they governed.
Margareth of Parma was lady born in the low countries how, raised in Italy and by this alianation her from her subjects. Also many of her, influential, advisors like Antione Granville even had some sort of dislike to the people of the Low Countires even if they belong to the upper ranks of nobiity.
Although a leaders ship more connected to the realm they govern is not nesesary a reason to treat dissidents hars it certainly made them think twice.
One of the major factors of the revolution and civil war erupting in Flanders in 1566, was the economic crises, causing unemployment, combining with a sharp increase in the cost of living while at the same time the Church were, nearly blackmailing, the population with the inulgence sceme in order to fund their ever increasing whealthy way of life and the megalomanic Saint Piere Basilic in the far away Rome.

-People start to read the (printed) bibles and try to give their faith their own interpretation. ( Arround 90% of the Flemish citizens could read and write in 1500)
-This people were prosecuted and tortured which make them harder in their faith and shocked the majority.
-Increasing poverty and inequality made some of those protestants even more extreme and resulting in some real extremist.
- These extremist, like Sebastiaan Matte, where not shy of extreme actions and violence, destroying statues of saints and paintings.
- Some of those extremist developed a world view close to otl comunism, see Jan van Leyden.
Then it's pretty good that the rulers in this TL are native flemish who aren't into inquisitorial shenanigans and who aren't disconnected from the general public like otl. Plus they aren't governing the Low Countries for someone else.
 
In this TL there are no Spanish Hapsburgs either, they are away in Austria and Hungary doing their thing. But yes, England might eventually go protestant. I kind of have a loose scheme where religious turmoils builds up to a momentum where the country implodes in 1612, not helped by two princes who hates each other on either side, a tragic love story and a possible false heir. Like I said earlier, the York dynasty is gonna implode in hellfire that year. Drama!
that makes sense but the main difference is that I don't think we'll see the Spanish road at all, and it'd mostly be fought in the middle of Germany. Britain doesn't seem t be having fun tho on that year ittl tho lol, I do hope Britain has a worse run because its a brabant wank.
Well the current Philip (Philip IV) isn't gonna live to see any reformation as his death date is set for 30 October in 1517, the day before Martin Luther publish the 95 Theses. His son Philippe (Philip V) however is gonna have to content with the reformation and I imagine that he'll be religiously tolerant for a long while. What the County of Burgundy still down south is gonna do however with the reformation is another kettle of fish...

Erasmus is more of a tutor to Philippe, the ducal heir. So Philip IV isnt gonna live to make protestant sympathies. So there is definitely gonna become more leanings towards Protestantism or at least trying to clean up the churches and religious organisations from within to prevent complete disasters. Plus Philip V is gonna die in 1540, so perhaps the harsh brunt of the reformation happens after his death. But on the whole, Philip IV is gonna expand his dutchy more up north, so I can imagine they will be more focused on the northern and north-east parts for a while.

How does this sound?
This is very interesting indeed, and I defo think Phillip V defo would be very important because he'd be instrumental in shaping the lands he rules as he would see more and more ppl convert to the various sects of protestantism, so his policies (prob religious tolerance) and his policies on colonialism would change the fate of Brabant ittl.

I can see why you want Brabant be catholic tho.
 
Anyone knows what the title of the Prince of Wales son would be? His grandfather is still the king and his father is gonna stay the Prince of Wales for a few more years.
 
Anyone knows what the title of the Prince of Wales son would be? His grandfather is still the king and his father is gonna stay the Prince of Wales for a few more years.
If he's too young to be made a Duke of something, maybe take a page from the Modern British Royal Family. Before becoming Duke of Cambridge, Prince William was William Wales because his father was Prince of Wales then...
 
If he's too young to be made a Duke of something, maybe take a page from the Modern British Royal Family. Before becoming Duke of Cambridge, Prince William was William Wales because his father was Prince of Wales then...
Good tip. I shall also look around for some vacant earl titles lying around the place.
Would Earl of March work? Or Earl of Wiltshire? I like the idea of the son of Catherine of Aragon having the title Henry VIII gave Anne Boleyn's father. Its a nice irony.
 
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Good tip. I shall also look around for some vacant earl titles lying around the place.
Would Earl of March work? Or Earl of Wiltshire? I like the idea of the son of Catherine of Aragon having the title Henry VIII gave Anne Boleyn's father. Its a nice irony.
Sounds delightful.
 
Anyone knows what the title of the Prince of Wales son would be? His grandfather is still the king and his father is gonna stay the Prince of Wales for a few more years.
Good tip. I shall also look around for some vacant earl titles lying around the place.
Would Earl of March work? Or Earl of Wiltshire? I like the idea of the son of Catherine of Aragon having the title Henry VIII gave Anne Boleyn's father. Its a nice irony.
Prince + name is the likeliest thing or he will use a junior title of his father (likely Earl of Chester). He could also be called with his name + birthplace (like a surviving New Year Prince could have been called Henry of Richmond)
 
Prince + name is the likeliest thing or he will use a junior title of his father (likely Earl of Chester). He could also be called with his name + birthplace (like a surviving New Year Prince could have been called Henry of Richmond)
Prince X, Earl of March does have a nice ring to it.
 
Then it's pretty good that the rulers in this TL are native flemish who aren't into inquisitorial shenanigans and who aren't disconnected from the general public like otl. Plus they aren't governing the Low Countries for someone else.



ok now you force me to defend the church for the umpteenth time, enough with this pro-Protestant propaganda in which the church in Rome is sick, dystopian and corrupt, while the rest is pious and righteous (absolutely false, now let me explain: the church in Italy was corrupt this is true, also because it was a fundamental piece in the power game between the Italian dynasties and the great powers that supported them (France and Spain) but it is not that in Germany or France things were rosy ( on the contrary, the clergy of Germany was second only to the Italians in terms of corruption (without however having their reason, i.e. in Italy anyone could become pope with the right connections, in Germany it was to favor real dynastic empires among the ecclesiastical possessions ( seen that the 3 electors were in turn monopolized by the Wittelsbach and Wettin ) so as not to divide too much the temporal territories of the aforementioned families. another fact that caused the adhesion of many nations to the reform was their total lack of decision-making power on the clergy in Rome as opposed to France or the Habsburgs (Spain is another matter, due to the reconquest issue and defending the papacy from being back in French hands, the Spanish monarchs managed by force to have a control over their clergy superior even to that of France (before the concordat of Bologna of 1516) which was then seen very badly even by the same pope Alexander VI above all who disapproved of the extreme use of the ecclesiastical court in Spain (ie the inquisition) but that he could not prove it publicly due to the loss of Spanish support against the French. Hadrian met a bad end, so to speak, not because he was only a foreigner, or because he did not tolerate the wealth of the Renaissance (if Florence was its capital in the 15th century, in the 16th century that role fell to Rome) but above all because he was literally a subject of the emperor ( Charles V ) in a period of terrible wars in the peninsula ( where even a local pope could easily be accused of being pro - French / Spanish , let alone a foreigner ).

another fact leading to reform was that the post-schisma papacy however hard it tried could not regain the lost influence ( thus their power alone was limited to the Alps making the church seem very national rather than universal )
without the help of the main states (this was especially true in the HRE where the Habsburgs used the imperial church as their main bulwark to govern the Reich, knowing he could not trust the princes)

even a series of weak pontiffs or slaves of the powers did not help to re-establish the semblance of autonomy and importance of the Holy See (see Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII, Clement VII, and the early years of Leo X (who was more interested in the role of prince than of pope), the only competent ones were it strange to say Alexander VI and Julius II (but they were on bad terms to collaborate)

all this combined with the desire of the various princes, dukes and kings to increase their decision-making power against their nobles only created a perfect mix in which the possibility of commanding a local church and taking its riches for itself must only look with an interest in the Protestant movement (obviously excluding those who had converted out of true personal conviction)

then that the rift between Protestants and Catholics follows almost faithfully the Roman Limes in some points is a strange and amusing coincidence (as if to say that the Germans after about 16 centuries after Teutoburg noticed that the Romans were conquering them without weapons and rebel against them 😅😂 ) British Isles not included

anyway outburst aside your story is well done and very compelling
 
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