The Grand Duchy of Salonika (Napoleonic)

All very thought out GW!

I had thought that the UK would retain more French possessions but that would probably only prolong the war and not result in your dream's situation; so you description is adequate ;).

North America feels right (as one option) though I'd need to see a map to be sure.
Since South American history is hazy to me at the best of times I can only guess that that's the way to go :D.
FWIW tho the mix of revolution, independence, and autonomy feels right too.

Love the Kingdom of Catalonia btw ;):D
 
All very thought out GW!

I had thought that the UK would retain more French possessions but that would probably only prolong the war and not result in your dream's situation; so you description is adequate ;).

North America feels right (as one option) though I'd need to see a map to be sure.
Since South American history is hazy to me at the best of times I can only guess that that's the way to go :D.
FWIW tho the mix of revolution, independence, and autonomy feels right too.

Love the Kingdom of Catalonia btw ;):D

Thanks

South America is the most difficult, but as it is more or less a fact that had the 1820 reinforcements actually been sent, the Royalists would have been in a good position to bash Bolivar and Sucre, then it seems that a temporary "hold" makes sense, followed later by the splintering off of the edges, so to speak, since that is very much how Quito seemed to view itself, purely in respect to being the edge of Peru rather than in any relation to Granada/Colombia

I'm also looking at the French sponsoring the Mapuche and creating a unified Mapuche kingdom as their satellite. Not the formal protectorate that Britain acquires over the Miskit, but like how the Indian (as in India) princely states were with regard to the British Empire

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I was looking at what happened in the Principalities and in Serbia as an example, where laws were passed forbidding Muslims to own land, and requiring them to sell it.

But I guess direct Russian rule is different from newly independent/autonomous nation states wanting to rid themselves of the legacy of Muslim domination.

Yeah, that's about the sum of it. I'd expect Janina, for example, to be heavily Greek in the south despite by your last map including Albania. Actual Russian holdings and Muslim-majority protectorates are a different story, with the afore-mentioned exception of Istanbyzantinople.

I do, though, think that there would be a substantial exodus of the upper classes and the educated to Egypt which would have become the centre of the Muslim world

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Makes sense to me.
 
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America and India

OK, I've created the map for the Americas using Victoria II. The shape of Venezuela looks pretty realistic, I think, whilst Ecuador sitting between Peru and Granada may look perilous on the map, but no more so than Belgium between France and the Netherlands did.

The United Kingdom of Patagonia and Araucania is going to be the Mapuche kingdom, and I rather fancy it would be shortened to Patagonia, to represent the fact that the Western tribes are predominant as being the ones most focused upon by the French, and where the French have poured in money and arms. Araucania is theoretically equal, but probably not, whilst in the political theory of the time France has imported a prince to be king. This latter made perfect sense in OTL in new countries where no noble would bow down by instinct to another, so that the raising above all nobles of a native as king was an insult to them all, and a constant challenge for them to resist the pretenses of one of their own number to greater glory. OTL one saw this in Serbia and in Romania, but it is equally applicable to the Mapuche where no chief would accept the elevation of another chief to the kingship and in OTL they opted for a French adventurer. Here, they can go one better and have a French noble, supported by the Emperor, as their king.

I'm leaning towards a Ney, not necessarily the head of the dynasty, who would have better things to do, but his brother, or second son, ie a junior line, but not so junior that it does not stand next to the senior line. I'm sure Napoleon II would grant him a suitable noble title before he sets off for, and arrives in, Patagonia. Thus he would arrive as a duke of France, and the choice of both the council of chiefs and the French Emperor, and be enthroned as King of the United Kingdom of Patagonia and Araucania.

But it is a poor kingdom, even French aid cannot do much against that as there is little to work with. No doubt France can provide some rudimentary industry in the ports, and maybe a class of adventurer willing to work as clerks for the capital, but Patagonia is going to be a weak and difficult nation on the world scene. It is going to take some struggle to drag it from this to anything like civilisation.

I could see a small Personal Guard of veteran ex-French soldiers, good men, attracted by the Ney name, rather than scoundrels out for a buck. They would protect the king, and provide the force of law and order, both in the capital and in any area where chiefs clash and the central authority needs to impose itself. Such is the advantage in having the French Empire as your sponsor.

- - -

Regarding India, I am thinking that the main effects of the Peace of 1815 is to see Mysore fully freed up to be a French ally, and the EIC's dominion over Delhi reined back, to make the Mughals once again in charge of their local affairs. In addition, Denmark would continue to expand and develop their Indian holdings.

I don't doubt the Anglo-Marathi tensions which led in OTL to the third, and final, Anglo-Marathi War, but in a world where France has much more diplomatic presence, and a vested interest in the Indian balance of power I don't see it leading to such drastic outcomes as in OTL. In fact, France may even be able to play the role of an Honest Broker, much no doubt to Hastings' fury, but probably with Alexander of Russia's support.

These years immediately after the Peace of 1815 are going to be delicate ones for Britain, who knows more than anyone else that resurrecting the fatalistic war spirit of the pre-1815 years is impossible. Any attempt to rekindle a general war for anything less than the threat of imminent invasion is likely to result in mass unrest, and even national revolution, and British statesmen have to bear this in mind.

France's main aim is going to be to protect Mysore and to insulate it from the advance of British territory, so they will probably accept British gains in the North around Surat as a balance against enforcing a return to the status quo ante bellum further South.

The Maratha empire, such as it is, will be dead for sure, but its constituent states will survive more than OTL, and with more territory than OTL

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE that Britain does not know that it is coming off worse here than it did in OTL. To the politicians in London the fact that they not only avoided a reopening of the war with France, but made some significant gains North of Bombay is going to seem like a good outcome. Complete victory and the conquest and obliteration of the Marathi states is going to remain the domain of the dreamer and nutcase.

France's position in the decades ahead is going to be important, creating its own Indian Alliance to balance the power of the EIC and its vassals. Apart from Pondicherry, France is going to be acting in terms of diplomacy not conquest, focusing on the twin bastions of Delhi and Mysore, whilst Hyderabad will be pulled every which way by Britain and France in their rivalry.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
.

the americas.jpg
 
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India and map

Regarding India, I am thinking that the main effects of the Peace of 1815 is to see Mysore fully freed up to be a French ally, and the EIC's dominion over Delhi reined back, to make the Mughals once again in charge of their local affairs. In addition, Denmark would continue to expand and develop their Indian holdings.

I don't doubt the Anglo-Marathi tensions which led in OTL to the third, and final, Anglo-Marathi War, but in a world where France has much more diplomatic presence, and a vested interest in the Indian balance of power I don't see it leading to such drastic outcomes as in OTL. In fact, France may even be able to play the role of an Honest Broker, much no doubt to Hastings' fury, but probably with Alexander of Russia's support.

These years immediately after the Peace of 1815 are going to be delicate ones for Britain, who knows more than anyone else that resurrecting the fatalistic war spirit of the pre-1815 years is impossible. Any attempt to rekindle a general war for anything less than the threat of imminent invasion is likely to result in mass unrest, and even national revolution, and British statesmen have to bear this in mind.

France's main aim is going to be to protect Mysore and to insulate it from the advance of British territory, so they will probably accept British gains in the North around Surat as a balance against enforcing a return to the status quo ante bellum further South.

The Maratha empire, such as it is, will be dead for sure, but its constituent states will survive more than OTL, and with more territory than OTL

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE that Britain does not know that it is coming off worse here than it did in OTL. To the politicians in London the fact that they not only avoided a reopening of the war with France, but made some significant gains North of Bombay is going to seem like a good outcome. Complete victory and the conquest and obliteration of the Marathi states is going to remain the domain of the dreamer and nutcase.

France's position in the decades ahead is going to be important, creating its own Indian Alliance to balance the power of the EIC and its vassals. Apart from Pondicherry, France is going to be acting in terms of diplomacy not conquest, focusing on the twin bastions of Delhi and Mysore, whilst Hyderabad will be pulled every which way by Britain and France in their rivalry.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

india check.jpg
 
Where the map of India says "India" I obviously need to understand what independent state existed there before. From what I can gather Puna (Poona) seems to have been the centre of Maratha politics, but was it a state itself, and if so what was the extent of its dominion?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Where the map of India says "India" I obviously need to understand what independent state existed there before. From what I can gather Puna (Poona) seems to have been the centre of Maratha politics, but was it a state itself, and if so what was the extent of its dominion?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Judging by the Maratha and Maharashtra pages on wikipedia there does appear to have been a state of Puna within the Marathas but unfortunately I can't find a map showing the boundaries at that time.
There is this map that shows the modern breakdown of the post independence Maratha successor Maharashtra State which seems to continue traditional names.
And this one of the Bombay Presidency shows the boundaries at that time.
Your "India" state there seems to correspond with the Southern Division and south Central Division.
 
Judging by the Maratha and Maharashtra pages on wikipedia there does appear to have been a state of Puna within the Marathas but unfortunately I can't find a map showing the boundaries at that time.
There is this map that shows the modern breakdown of the post independence Maratha successor Maharashtra State which seems to continue traditional names.
And this one of the Bombay Presidency shows the boundaries at that time.
Your "India" state there seems to correspond with the Southern Division and south Central Division.

There's this
http://princelystatesofindia.com/Princely/aundh.html
which is the princely state of Satara, but it is described as coming into being "after the overthrow of the peshwa"

This is even more confusing
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...U#v=onepage&q=overthrow of the peshwa&f=false
including the note that the Peshwa did not overthrow the Maratha monarchy, which continued to reign in name only at Satara, but suborned it and ruled it from within at Poona...

I am equally far away from enlightenment!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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Hmmm,

http://www.nupam.com/maratha1.html

Peshwas of Pune


Shivaji the great was followed by his two sons, Shambhuji and Rajaram, both ruled briefly. Brave Shambhuji fought gallantly with Mughals but was captured by fanatic Mughal emperor Aurangzeb and was tortured to death. Rajaram kept the battle going but died soon. The young son of Shambhuji, Shahu was made in charge of Marathas. Shahu turned out to be a smart ruler who appointed an intelligent Brahmin, Balaji Vishwanath as his Peshwa (prime minister). After death of Shahu, Marathas united under a confederacy and owed nominal allegiance to adopted son of Shahu and later kings. The Maratha confederacy which built the empire consisted of five families with Peshwas of Pune as major power brokers. The other 4 families were Shindes (Scindhias) of Gwaliar, Gaikwars of Baroda, Bhonsale of Nagpur and Holkars of Indore. Shown below is coin issued by Peshwas at their capital Pune or Poona. Ankush, a royal symbol is seen on obverse of coin, at 9 `o' clock position.

So it looks like Gwaliar, Baroda, Nagpur, Indore and Pune (of the various spellings)

Given that Poona was the most powerful and I think the other 4 states were NOT to its South, but that Satara is, then I assume that Puna had authority Southwards over these remaining lands, partly because as the most powerful it picked up the remnant sovereignty of the Maratha king at Satara?

This is all completely unknown history to me!!!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
So, if one proceeds from that, and takes the Maratha war as happening and being won by Britain but the territorial settlement less advantageous, then might not Puna's dominion be broken up, as the centre of the defeated federation? Puna itself remains with the Peshwa, but Satara is reborn, sort of like how it was in OTL, but this time with full sovereignty and territory, rather than the splintered princely state that it became?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Thande

Donor
From what I gather, especially after Third Panipat in about 1760 (can't remember exactly when) the Maratha Confederacy was more based on families' feudal holdings than national state structure, a bit like the Holy Roman Empire. Poona/Pune was the Peshwa's capital, but the Peshwa was only the notional figurehead most of the time, with the heads of the big families like the Scindias and Holkars having most of the power.
 
From what I gather, especially after Third Panipat in about 1760 (can't remember exactly when) the Maratha Confederacy was more based on families' feudal holdings than national state structure, a bit like the Holy Roman Empire. Poona/Pune was the Peshwa's capital, but the Peshwa was only the notional figurehead most of the time, with the heads of the big families like the Scindias and Holkars having most of the power.

Using a Victoria II generated map (!) I would place the other 4 named fuedal holdings (statelets, if you like) to the North and East of Puna, but nothing to the South of it, which is where Satara is, presumably with the powerless Maratha monarch buggering around in his palace?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I have a few more things of India-ness for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/india_shepherd_1923.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/India1765and1805b.jpg

As for Mysore, Britain is not going to allow it to escape BEIC dominion, and anyway the Company is going to scream bloody murder if anyone even tries to do so. They'd gone to war with Mysore four times already, at least once because of perceived French influence - it had already (re-)installed the Hindu royal family, which is firmly in their pocket.

Delhi had only been subjugated in 1803, so there might be some room for manoeuvre there.

If anything, a more powerful France is going to make Britain even more concerned about India than IOTL. I don't see them giving ground there without significant concessions from France, or a massively humiliating defeat. Which, after 1812, France would not be able to deliver.

Short of a (successful) French invasion of India, that is not going to happen. (Or, maybe a more successful *Indian Mutiny; but if Britain smells French influence in that, it will likely lead to general war...)

On the matter of Delhi, maybe Britain would agree to a neutralisation if they get France to agree to Egypt staying neutral.

Like I said before, they only plausible way to get significant French influence in India is with a much earlier PoD, and a governor general that is more indifferent to expansionism, instead concentrating on making money.

Anyway, even if that long railway goes to Delhi, that doesn't mean that it can't go through British territory... ;)
 

Nice map, especially the Shepherd one which does indeed show the lands South of Puna as part of the same dominion

Analytical Engine said:
As for Mysore, Britain is not going to allow it to escape BEIC dominion, and anyway the Company is going to scream bloody murder if anyone even tries to do so. They'd gone to war with Mysore four times already, at least once because of perceived French influence - it had already (re-)installed the Hindu royal family, which is firmly in their pocket.

Delhi had only been subjugated in 1803, so there might be some room for manoeuvre there.

If anything, a more powerful France is going to make Britain even more concerned about India than IOTL. I don't see them giving ground there without significant concessions from France, or a massively humiliating defeat. Which, after 1812, France would not be able to deliver.

Short of a (successful) French invasion of India, that is not going to happen. (Or, maybe a more successful *Indian Mutiny; but if Britain smells French influence in that, it will likely lead to general war...)

On the matter of Delhi, maybe Britain would agree to a neutralisation if they get France to agree to Egypt staying neutral.

Like I said before, they only plausible way to get significant French influence in India is with a much earlier PoD, and a governor general that is more indifferent to expansionism, instead concentrating on making money.

Anyway, even if that long railway goes to Delhi, that doesn't mean that it can't go through British territory... ;)

The neutralisation of Egypt is quite an interesting one. It would have become THE major Muslim power, though it does need investment and expertise to make anything of it.

I can see France agreeing not to station troops there, but can't see them agreeing not to be the dominant nation advising them, or diplomatically.

That long railway would be quite interesting; I plotted its entire route and after Anatolia it goes Mosul, Baghdad, Basra then along the Persian coast as the only real logical route, otherwise its an absolute nightmare of mountains after mountains. Then it goes up the great valley to Delhi

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The neutralisation of Egypt is quite an interesting one. It would have become THE major Muslim power, though it does need investment and expertise to make anything of it.

I can see France agreeing not to station troops there, but can't see them agreeing not to be the dominant nation advising them, or diplomatically.

As long as they're not too overt about it. ;)

I suspect Egypt will be flirted at furiously by both sides, until one becomes predominant.

That long railway would be quite interesting; I plotted its entire route and after Anatolia it goes Mosul, Baghdad, Basra then along the Persian coast as the only real logical route, otherwise its an absolute nightmare of mountains after mountains. Then it goes up the great valley to Delhi.

It sounds a bit like a more southerly Trans-Siberian. I suppose it could be an example of international cooperation or something. Perhaps Delhi could be the natural terminus between the French-built railway on one side, and a British-built one on the other. If EIC influence over central and northern India remains more theoretical than practical, Delhi might be more like Cold War Turkey IOTL - somewhere neutral for everyone to spy on each other, or make shady deals. Briliant for a Victorianesque spy thriller type of thing... ;)

Anyway, I suspect the Middle East will become something of a three way *Great Game between France, Russia and Britain, with the latter two occasionally supporting each other instead of France.
 
As long as they're not too overt about it. ;)

I suspect Egypt will be flirted at furiously by both sides, until one becomes predominant.



It sounds a bit like a more southerly Trans-Siberian. I suppose it could be an example of international cooperation or something. Perhaps Delhi could be the natural terminus between the French-built railway on one side, and a British-built one on the other. If EIC influence over central and northern India remains more theoretical than practical, Delhi might be more like Cold War Turkey IOTL - somewhere neutral for everyone to spy on each other, or make shady deals. Briliant for a Victorianesque spy thriller type of thing... ;)

Anyway, I suspect the Middle East will become something of a three way *Great Game between France, Russia and Britain, with the latter two occasionally supporting each other instead of France.

Persia would be interesting in this scenario as it has a world-class railway running along its entire Southern coast, but one not under its control! One supposes there would be railyards and foundries etc along the route, tho, which would spread industrialisation out into the surrounding area, but whether it would immediately affect the rest of the country is harder to see - I suppose it would make it EASIER to run a line to Tehran

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Persia would be interesting in this scenario as it has a world-class railway running along its entire Southern coast, but one not under its control! One supposes there would be railyards and foundries etc along the route, tho, which would spread industrialisation out into the surrounding area, but whether it would immediately affect the rest of the country is harder to see - I suppose it would make it EASIER to run a line to Tehran.

It could have two lines. One going from Basra down through to Bandar Abbas, then along to Gwadar, Karachi, Multan, Lahore, Delhi, and a split going to Peshawar, then to Kabul.

Another line could go Baku - Tehran - Qom - Esfahan - Shiraz - Bandar Abbas. This could be built with Russian/British capital.
EDIT: This could also have a connecting line to Baghdad.
 
It could have two lines. One going from Basra down through to Bandar Abbas, then along to Gwadar, Karachi, Multan, Lahore, Delhi, and a split going to Peshawar, then to Kabul.

Another line could go Baku - Tehran - Qom - Esfahan - Shiraz - Bandar Abbas. This could be built with Russian/British capital.
EDIT: This could also have a connecting line to Baghdad.

The Azeri/Persian one looks like how the split-off lines of the China railways came to emanate off the Trans-Siberian using Russian capital, albeit some 20-30 years after when we are talking about here.

Thanks for your help and advice today, I''m going to go home and put some of it into use to finish creating the world

I want Britain to have focused more on Burma anyway, and probably conquered the lot by 1875, maybe pushed in further into the Shan states too.

But a good question was raised earlier as to the course of French colonialism in the period up to 1875. I can show they are active inside countries, and basically prop up Patagonia, but directly they would be getting involved in several places, and conquering others.

I would prefer to keep the Madagascan kingdom (I like the idea of keeping Radama II alive), albeit under French influence maybe, but I wonder if they would go for Zanzibar directly? There is of course Western Africa, and wars to be had there to expand,but little glory...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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