The Goths and Götaland.

Götaland, Gothenburg (Swedish: Göteborg) and Gotland, all parts of modern Sweden, all have names similar to the ancient Goths. As far as I understand, the Goths originated in modern Poland and spoke an East-Germanic language. Is there a connection between the Goths and the mentioned areas apart from the fact that people in both areas spoke a Germanic language? Where does the term "Goth" come from? Can "Goths" have been a term used for all Germanic people?
 
Götaland, Gothenburg (Swedish: Göteborg) and Gotland, all parts of modern Sweden, all have names similar to the ancient Goths. As far as I understand, the Goths originated in modern Poland and spoke an East-Germanic language. Is there a connection between the Goths and the mentioned areas apart from the fact that people in both areas spoke a Germanic language?
Gothenburg/Göteborg is a modern name from the 1600s.

The island Gotland and its population of gutar, share their name with the Goths, while the Geats/götar on the peninsula have an ablaut form of the same word (gut-gaut), so there is a linguistic connection. There is also the case of the Guthnic dialects on Gotland being the closest to Gothic among the North Germanic varieties.

The continental Goths claimed to have come from Scandinavia, and at the time it was also claimed that there were other Gothic tribes left in Scandinavia, namely Vagoth, Ostrogoth, and Gautigoth, which might mean people in Gotland, Östergötland (including Småland) and Västergötland.
 
As far as I understand, the Goths originated in modern Poland and spoke an East-Germanic language. Is there a connection between the Goths and the mentioned areas apart from the fact that people in both areas spoke a Germanic language? Where does the term "Goth" come from? Can "Goths" have been a term used for all Germanic people?

As I understood, they had originated in southern Scandinavia, hence Gautland and Gotland, and moved across the sea into Finland, then south to the coast of the black sea, where they split to the Ostrogoths and Visigoths. The Ostros then moved into Italy and sacked Rome, while the Visigoths moved into Iberia/Southern France.

If that id the case, then I would assume that no, Goth couldn't become a word for German, as they never lived in the area that we associate with OTL Germans, and the area that the Romans called Germania, where the word Germans/Germany comes from.
 
The continental Goths claimed to have come from Scandinavia, and at the time it was also claimed that there were other Gothic tribes left in Scandinavia, namely Vagoth, Ostrogoth, and Gautigoth, which might mean people in Gotland, Östergötland (including Småland) and Västergötland.

I have heard that the Ur-Germanic might have had its origin in Southern Sweden (or possibly Denmark). Anyone who knows?
 
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I have heard that the Ur-Germanic might have had its origin in Southern Sweden (or possibly Denmark). Anyone who knows?
That is my understanding of the situation, that the Germanic peoples displaced the Celts from modern Germany only during the Iron Age.
 
If that id the case, then I would assume that no, Goth couldn't become a word for German, as they never lived in the area that we associate with OTL Germans, and the area that the Romans called Germania, where the word Germans/Germany comes from.

I didn`t say "German", but "Germanic". "Germanic" includes people also speaking other Germanic languages, like Anglosaxon, Old Norse, East Germanic and so on.
 
As I understood, they had originated in southern Scandinavia, hence Gautland and Gotland, and moved across the sea into Finland, then south to the coast of the black sea, where they split to the Ostrogoths and Visigoths. The Ostros then moved into Italy and sacked Rome, while the Visigoths moved into Iberia/Southern France.
The split between Ostrogoths and Visigoths, is really only accurate for once the Amal led Goths established themselves in Italy. It's not really an accurate term to describe them. Of the gothic tribes north of the Danube (before crossing into the empire), the two dominant groups were the Tervingi and Gruethungi. And then you still have to consider the Goths that remained north of the Danube and under the control of the Huns until the latter's collapse.
 
That is my understanding of the situation, that the Germanic peoples displaced the Celts from modern Germany only during the Iron Age.
LSCatilina will know more than me on this, but the distinction between Celts and Germans is tenuous at best. It really only derives from Caesar saying "these guys on that side of the Rhine are different from these guys on our side of the Rhine". Culturally, the two were very similar and its hard to spot many differences AFAIK. One of the reasons there's debate over whether the Cimbri and Teutones (to use an example) were German or Celtic is because we can't really find many distinctions between the two.
 
yet when you look at graves and archeological sites from the Crimbri in Jutland (where they most likely came from) they seem (IIRC) to have rather little in common with the celtic population, but some time soon after they started wandering they picked up certain celtic traditions.
 
LSCatilina will know more than me on this, but the distinction between Celts and Germans is tenuous at best. It really only derives from Caesar saying "these guys on that side of the Rhine are different from these guys on our side of the Rhine". Culturally, the two were very similar and its hard to spot many differences AFAIK. One of the reasons there's debate over whether the Cimbri and Teutones (to use an example) were German or Celtic is because we can't really find many distinctions between the two.
I recognize the lack of a cultural divide between the two classes--I was under the impression that toponymy suggests the presence of people speaking a derivative of Proto-Celtic, rather than Proto-Germanic, in prehistoric upper Germany.
 
I recognize the lack of a cultural divide between the two classes--I was under the impression that toponymy suggests the presence of people speaking a derivative of Proto-Celtic, rather than Proto-Germanic, in prehistoric upper Germany.
See, this is where I'm really out of my element and where someone like LSCatilina, who knows a lot more on this subject, could comment.
 
LSCatilina will know more than me on this, but the distinction between Celts and Germans is tenuous at best. It really only derives from Caesar saying "these guys on that side of the Rhine are different from these guys on our side of the Rhine". Culturally, the two were very similar and its hard to spot many differences AFAIK. One of the reasons there's debate over whether the Cimbri and Teutones (to use an example) were German or Celtic is because we can't really find many distinctions between the two.

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For many centuries "Gothic" was a derogatory term referring to "uncivilized" tirbes living North of the Alps.
The term "Gothic" has evolved over tme.
The "Gothic" alphabet/type face originated with the Emperor Charlemagne.
For example, an early example of "Gothic" architecture is the Cathedral of Chartres (sp?) in France.
 
See, this is where I'm really out of my element and where someone like LSCatilina, who knows a lot more on this subject, could comment.

Well, while I get the impression that Germanic and Celtic groups on both sides of the Rhine were pretty similar in overall material culture and general societal organization (and we can assume that they intermarried pretty heavily in areas like Belgica) and we can be fairly sure that language set them apart, so I would guess that toponymy is about the best indicator you can get.
And yes, to my knowledge southern Germany is thought to have been largely Celtic until classical times. However, I also defer to LSC.
 
I recognize the lack of a cultural divide between the two classes--I was under the impression that toponymy suggests the presence of people speaking a derivative of Proto-Celtic, rather than Proto-Germanic, in prehistoric upper Germany.

Well, linguistically there are really obvious differences between Germanic and Caltic languages, even if mixed idioms might have existed.
Religious differences existed as well. Caesar might have made up details about the druids, but they existed, and there are almost no hints about a priestly class among German tribes.
 

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Inside Gaul, the Celtic town network held to a mythology similar to but distinct from the Insular Celtic peoples of the British Isles. Along the Rhine were Germanic-speaking tribes such as the Chatti who would have been very syncretic in lifestyle and religion. In fact, it is the Celtic high god Lugh, himself the embodiment of three separate deities, all resemble and predate "Wodanaz" as a Germanic figure. Resemblances include power of poetry, fury, magic, far-sight, language, travelling, and owning a spear and two ravens. It is likely through Celtic this contact that the first conception of Odin was given to the Germans.

Religious differences existed as well. Caesar might have made up details about the druids, but they existed, and there are almost no hints about a priestly class among German tribes.

While shamans always would have existed in Germanic tribes, there were no such things as formal rituals, such as for the Norse Vulva, or legal jurisdictions such as the Icelandic goði. However an early shaman class, the wolf/bear warrior embodying the drug induced ecstasy of self realized war-fury. I believe it is by this war-shaman class that Wodan displaced Tiwaz as alfather.
 
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I believe they all descended from the Gutes of Gotaland since it is a fertile but cramped island. It inspired me to make this map.

Nice but the Jutes are different from the Goths.
And are more likely to have entered Kent from Frisia/Low Countries than directly from Jutland (if indeed they originated from Jutland and isn't another similar name confusion thing!)

Well, while I get the impression that Germanic and Celtic groups on both sides of the Rhine were pretty similar in overall material culture and general societal organization (and we can assume that they intermarried pretty heavily in areas like Belgica) and we can be fairly sure that language set them apart, so I would guess that toponymy is about the best indicator you can get.
And yes, to my knowledge southern Germany is thought to have been largely Celtic until classical times. However, I also defer to LSC.

Pretty much this.
I should also note that Celtic is a pretty much modern term since there was no cohesive cultural group across Europe that the term could reasonably apply to.
 
LSCatilina will know more than me on this, but the distinction between Celts and Germans is tenuous at best. It really only derives from Caesar saying "these guys on that side of the Rhine are different from these guys on our side of the Rhine". Culturally, the two were very similar and its hard to spot many differences AFAIK. One of the reasons there's debate over whether the Cimbri and Teutones (to use an example) were German or Celtic is because we can't really find many distinctions between the two.

Of course it is difficult to know for sure what the Romans meant with Celts and Germans, but the current meaning has to do with language. And the Celtic languages clearly belongs to another branch of the Indoeuropean family than the Germanic languages.
 
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