The Golden Dragon of Wales: A Glyndwr Rebellion TL
- Thread starter Gwrtheyrn Annwn
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Oh dear, if the Welsh try hard to make friends with the Aztecs, this timeline could lead to all sorts of Fun. Especially if the Aztecs get access to iron working while the rest of Europe gets the idea that these blood-crazed cultists are indeed descendants of a Welsh prince.
I think you mean descendants of prince Madog?
I think you mean descendants of prince Madog?
by the time the Welsh get to central America the Aztecs would probably have fallen to a mixture of introduced diseases and their enemies (the Aztecs were wildly unpopular for the monumental increase in sacrifices that came from their religious reforms), for all we know the Tarascan Empire could've taken over the area by that point since they had a stable and strong state bordering them.
Hmm... barring disease, it should be noted that 'Mexico' in this time would refer to the Valley of Mexico, as referred by the Mexica people (aka. the Aztecs). Given the sheer timescale of different events + the butterfly effect, the Mexica might not establish their hegemonic empire at all - they were newcomers to an already populated region and only settled in the valley's worst islands and swamps because there was no good land left (and other reasons). It was through diplomacy, war, and sheer dumb luck that their empire got established in the first place.
In short, the warriors the Welsh captured are either more likely Totonac or Otomi warriors, not Aztecs. The latter peoples would still have their kingdoms thriving without the Mexica/Aztecs trampling over them as new overlords.
P.S.: given the sheer distance from the eastern seaboard to the not-Mexica coast, are you sure the Welsh didn't struck instead a Mayan outpost in not-Cuba? They do have canoes...
In short, the warriors the Welsh captured are either more likely Totonac or Otomi warriors, not Aztecs. The latter peoples would still have their kingdoms thriving without the Mexica/Aztecs trampling over them as new overlords.
P.S.: given the sheer distance from the eastern seaboard to the not-Mexica coast, are you sure the Welsh didn't struck instead a Mayan outpost in not-Cuba? They do have canoes...
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So, its been a while (again!). I'll be honest, I'm struggling for ideas to write ATM with the whole New World thing. Its definitely not my area of expertise and I'm sure there are several other TLs that do it better!
With that in mind, I plan to write a sort of timeskip like chapter next to jump maybe 20 years forward which should free thing up for the next 'big event' if you will. Hopefully this chapter will come out this week-end!
With that in mind, I plan to write a sort of timeskip like chapter next to jump maybe 20 years forward which should free thing up for the next 'big event' if you will. Hopefully this chapter will come out this week-end!
Chapter 37: The Forgotten Kings
Chapter 37: The Forgotten Kings
For roughly 2 decades, the New World discovered by the crew of the Virtue absorbed the attention of every monarch in Atlantic Europe. Some held dreams of wealth or a holy mission whilst others were driven by idle curiosity and the desire not to be left behind and thus lose prestige. By the 1510s, however, it had become clear that there did not seem to be cities of gold nor vast populations to convert and even the most enthusiastic began to lose their drive.
The English, who had longed for untapped wealth, had largely failed in their objective, bringing back only curiosities and trinkets that made for an exotic collection but not much else. The Welsh, after the false dawn of discovering two ‘descendants’ of Prince Madog, had lost hope when their guests had died of smallpox in quick succession and a second and third expedition that set out to try and find the land from when they had come failed to find it again, exhausting the patience of the King to continue financing what were effectively vanity projects. The Scottish and Irish too, having never really committed to the matter in the first place, had abandoned the royal sponsored efforts. The continental monarchs persisted for a little longer but as France became increasingly distracted by the matter of Burgundy and Portugal sailed around the continent of Africa into the Indian Ocean, soon only Castille remained to persist in their efforts but even they faltered.
Thus, by the 1510s, there were a few colonies, little more than outposts, on the eastern coast of the New World, as varied as an Irish monastery and a hunting outpost for the White Hart Company. Back in Europe, however, the fascination with the New World had waned among the European monarchy and the tensions that had been all but ignored for two decades now resurfaced and chief among them was the tripartite conflict between England, Burgundy and France. Having its origins in the war begun nearly 200 years previously by Edward III, the rivalry was no longer about the English trying to claim the French throne and had instead begun to revolve around Burgundy. The Dukes of Burgundy had steadily grown stronger since the days of John the Fearless and as their strength had grown they had moved away from the French sphere and slowly, but surely, approached independence. The French Kings had, unsurprisingly, grown increasingly discontented with this state of affairs as the Burgundians, who were de jure French royal vassals, began to threaten to eclipse their ostensible overlords, in wealth if nothing else. The further complication was that the Mortimer Kings of England, despite having effectively given up their claim to the French throne, for practical reasons if nothing else, had still found ways to get themselves involved in the French and Burgundy dispute, firmly on the Burgundian side.
There was two reasons for this, firstly the French had given the Lancastrian claimants refuge, a decision that had baffled and outraged the Mortimers in equal measure, and second the Mortimers had devoted great effort into the woolen industry which in turn found its natural trade partner in the Flemish ports of the Dukes of Burgundy. Being on friendly terms already, it made sense that the Mortimers and Burgundians would seek to closen their ties still further and Edward V had married Mary of Burgundy to tie their dynasties together. As it happened, neither Edward V nor Mary could have known just how closely it would tie the two nations as Edward V’s early death led to over a decade of regency under Queen Mother Mary which in turn ensured that Edward VI was Burgundy leaning as well. Faced with this alliance, it was only natural that the French would respond to try and break its threat. They had already made an effort once before, with the abortive attempt to bring the fleet of Aragon against their English foe, but now, nearly 40 years later the new French King, Louis XII, was on the war path again. This time, there would be no Aragonese fleet and instead Louis XII would bring the French trump card back into play. The latest King Over The Water and Duke of Normandy, John II, had grown up with Louis XII at court and now the two childhood friends, flushed with ambition, set out to reclaim the English throne for the Lancastrians and break the Burgundians in one fell swoop. It would be no easy task, the Burgundians could afford large armies of mercenaries and the the Kings Over The Water had by now been largely forgotten in England and was as thoroughly French as Louis XII himself, but the French should never be counted out.
This then was how the 1500s began. The war that was coming would surely be the final reckoning for the Lancastrian claim to the English throne and perhaps the final reckoning on the fate of Burgundy too. It might be too bold a claim, but it would arguably also decide the balance of power in Europe as a whole. Should France install a favourable King on the English throne and reabsorb the Duchy of Burgundy and annex its new possessions, they would have the wealth and strength to dominate the continent of Europe as a new great power.
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A slightly shorter chapter than usual I'm afraid. The good news though is it is set up to the next big event as promised! After this next war is done, I will probably be returning to New World colonisation (suggestions and ideas for that would be appreciated!) but there is of course the looming matter of the Reformation coming up this century which will no doubt add a whole new dimension to consider. As always, please do leave a like or comment and, most importantly, enjoy!
Gwyn
Glad to see this back!
Interesting potential consequences for the development of the situation in the New World. The lull in colonial pursuits makes sense, but I feel as though it is going to be impermanent in the long term - Europe will eventually die down into a status quo of some form, and the states involved with the current spate of wars will be looking for some means to recoup their lost money. Even if the treasures of Mesoamerica remain secret for longer, the allure of fur and cod trading should serve as incentive for colonial focus within the North Atlantic by business interests, which will eventually pique the interest of the cash-strapped state interests. Given how hard Wales in particular leaned into this, they might be some of the more avid pursuers of that in a bid to recoup their investment (though whether they would stand to succeed is another matter unto itself). Furthermore, should their eastern holdings with strongly English populations prove continually restless, establishment of some penal colonies could help subdue the threat of English separatism and fifth-columnists.
Another possibility that I have little idea as to the merits of is increased development of the Basque presence in the New World. There are two factors that could potentially contribute to this: the fragmented and limited scale of colonial efforts in the western Atlantic (preventing a few large maritime powers from smothering the existing webs of Basque seafarers with state-sponsored systems of their own), and the vastly weakened state of England (historically one of the main antagonists towards Basque maritime activity in the North Sea). I'm not really familiar with the exact nuances behind the rise and fall of the Basque presence in the Atlantic, but I can see them remaining a powerful and extensive presence as one small clique among many (Irish, Welsh, Scots, English, Isles, French, and Spanish, plus potentially the Northumbrians and Burgundians) and remaining competitive in the absence of state-chartered adventures for the foreseeable future. And if you'd like to hear about some interesting cultural repercussions...
Pivoting back to Europe, it's interesting to think of how the coming war between Burgundy+England and France will impact Wales. On the one hand, a French victory in securing the Lancastrian claimant would on paper be a boon to Wales - their continental ally is now all the more powerful, and a France-aligned England is unlikely to go after another French-aligned power, such as Wales is. At the same time, if England is now an effective French client, then one of the stronger motives behind France supporting Wales - applying pressure to their enemy across the Channel - is now moot. Furthermore, a France with both of its major trade competitors in the Channel and North Sea subjugated would be quite able to smother any future Welsh colonial ambitions to the west. In contrast, an Anglo-Burgundian victory (or status quo peace) maintains a divided balance of power and reasons for French support, but leaves England as a strong Welsh opponent with a direct land border.
Interesting potential consequences for the development of the situation in the New World. The lull in colonial pursuits makes sense, but I feel as though it is going to be impermanent in the long term - Europe will eventually die down into a status quo of some form, and the states involved with the current spate of wars will be looking for some means to recoup their lost money. Even if the treasures of Mesoamerica remain secret for longer, the allure of fur and cod trading should serve as incentive for colonial focus within the North Atlantic by business interests, which will eventually pique the interest of the cash-strapped state interests. Given how hard Wales in particular leaned into this, they might be some of the more avid pursuers of that in a bid to recoup their investment (though whether they would stand to succeed is another matter unto itself). Furthermore, should their eastern holdings with strongly English populations prove continually restless, establishment of some penal colonies could help subdue the threat of English separatism and fifth-columnists.
Another possibility that I have little idea as to the merits of is increased development of the Basque presence in the New World. There are two factors that could potentially contribute to this: the fragmented and limited scale of colonial efforts in the western Atlantic (preventing a few large maritime powers from smothering the existing webs of Basque seafarers with state-sponsored systems of their own), and the vastly weakened state of England (historically one of the main antagonists towards Basque maritime activity in the North Sea). I'm not really familiar with the exact nuances behind the rise and fall of the Basque presence in the Atlantic, but I can see them remaining a powerful and extensive presence as one small clique among many (Irish, Welsh, Scots, English, Isles, French, and Spanish, plus potentially the Northumbrians and Burgundians) and remaining competitive in the absence of state-chartered adventures for the foreseeable future. And if you'd like to hear about some interesting cultural repercussions...
Pivoting back to Europe, it's interesting to think of how the coming war between Burgundy+England and France will impact Wales. On the one hand, a French victory in securing the Lancastrian claimant would on paper be a boon to Wales - their continental ally is now all the more powerful, and a France-aligned England is unlikely to go after another French-aligned power, such as Wales is. At the same time, if England is now an effective French client, then one of the stronger motives behind France supporting Wales - applying pressure to their enemy across the Channel - is now moot. Furthermore, a France with both of its major trade competitors in the Channel and North Sea subjugated would be quite able to smother any future Welsh colonial ambitions to the west. In contrast, an Anglo-Burgundian victory (or status quo peace) maintains a divided balance of power and reasons for French support, but leaves England as a strong Welsh opponent with a direct land border.
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Interesting that the earlier contact with the New World and finding North America first (again, after the Vikings did it earlier, and the East Asians before them, and possibly even some of the pre-Indo-European denizes of Europe if the Solutrean hypothesis carries water, but I digress) means that there's a lot less vigor in the early stages of colonialism. Could this mean that the natives have a higher chance of developing resistances to old world diseases before colonialism really kicks into high gear, I wonder?
Chapter 38: By The Pond
Chapter 38: By The Pond
The Kings over the Water were perhaps the strangest thing to come out of the Welsh War of Independence, or more accurately the War of Three Kings. The sons of Henry IV, once numbering 4 had been reduced to but one, John, the third son. His two elder brothers had died in battle fighting for their father and their throne respectively and his younger brother too had been killed on the battlefield after foolishly involving himself in the Cornish Rebellion. John himself would also meet his fate in battle, at Maidstone, whilst trying to reclaim the English throne but not before fleeing to France and having a son with a French wife. It was from this son that the line of the Kings over the Water descended, becoming increasingly French over the intervening years but never quite giving up the hope of returning to take the throne from the Mortimer usurpers. As yet though, the opportunity to do so had not presented itself, apart from the disastrous attempt some years earlier, but now that the King of France had plans once more to fight Burgundy it was only natural that he should use his best asset against Burgundy’s main ally, England.
When you consider that, it might be considered surprising that when John II, a man thoroughly French in all but name, raised the Lancastrian standard at his ducal capital of Rouen and thus announced his intention to reclaim the throne, the Mortimer King is reported to have laughed at the news and continued his hunting with words
“Perhaps I’ll find him by the pond when I return.”
This disdain was quite probably justified given how the aforementioned previous attempt by the King over the Water had ended, the complacency would have consequences for the English. The simple problem was that the English court regarded the Kings over the Water as amusing upstarts who were now so far removed from the realm they sought to claim that had no chance to take it and even if they were foolhardy enough to try, the English navy and indeed God himself would disabuse him of any notions of grandeur in short order. This was to be a grave error as they had underestimated the French King’s ambition, ambition in which the King over the Water was but a pawn, regardless of their friendship. Louis XII hoped for no less than supremacy in Europe and the conquest of Burgundy combined with a vassal king in England would give him that. This, and England’s own alliance with Burgundy, meant that this would not be a war that ended in a single battle like the Battle of Maidstone but a comparatively drawn out affair.
John II, Duke of Normandy (right) and Louis XII (left)
With war having begun formally on the 4th May, John II and his army of Lancaster exiles and mercenaries sat in their camp outside Rouen for several weeks and the French fleet too remained immobile at their base. The reason for this delay is not clear, the jousting tournaments and mock battles that they indulged in seemed to confirm the English scorn but of course there was every chance that John II, like William the Conqueror before him, had simply been forced to wait for the right wind to take him across the Channel. The tournaments were hardly wise activities for an army waiting for the campaign but the English had been right about one thing, John II was a man with a taste for the extravagant and he was quite happy to indulge himself in the trappings of chivalry instead of sitting bored and waiting. An added point in his favour was that Louis XII himself had visited John II and his army at the time and a tournament held in his honour was to be expected, if by now a bit of a dated tradition in the 1500s. Regardless of the explanation, John II and his men embarked for England on the 18th June, a delay that had already given the English reason to feel vindicated in their derision and had even had threatened to see the royal fleet reassigned from its position guarding the Channel from Southampton were it not for the caution urged by Sir James Langton from his position in command of the fleet.
Thanks to him, though, the royal fleet was able to respond with speed to the French invasion force, doubly so because it had been built to focus on speed and manoeuvrability. Posed against them was a French fleet largely composed of heavily armed and slow moving ships protecting the transport craft as what could only be described as a floating wall. The Battle of the Channel, as it is sometimes known, that followed can only be described as an example of naval hit and run warfare. Sir James Langton’s fleet harassed the French fleet with quick and, mostly, surprise attacks before retreating out of range as fast as they could sail. On whole this was a successful gambit as Sir James and his sailors peppered the French with cannon fire and even on occasion were daring enough to board straggling craft but ultimately they lacked the firepower to destroy or drive off their opponents, ultimately being forced to content themselves with sinking three of the French ships and capturing a fourth before patrolling the Channel in the hope of catching and sinking any retreating vessels. John II and his men, meanwhile, had made their landing at the south coast town of Brighton, quickly taking it and establishing a beachhead there before marching northwards on London itself.
Two of Sir James Langton's ships in the Channel
Having not found the pretender on his hunting trip, Edward VI received the news of John II’s landing with incredulity but, with the urging of his advisors, rallied an army and hurried south to meet his foe. Both we the reader and Mortimer England had been before and indeed it was this prior experience that had led to the earlier skepticism on the part of the Mortimer court but, though Edward VI and his household were not to know it yet, this time were be very different to the last attempt by John’s namesake and forebear. The reason for this was simple indeed for, even as the King Over The Water strode onto English sand for the first time in his life, a French army under the command of King Louis XII himself was marching into Burgundy and, as the Mortimer and Lancaster armies drew up into battle lines outside the market town of Crawley, had laid siege to the Burgundian capital of Dijon. So it was then that the optimism and excitement of the discovery of a New World across the Atlantic faded and dimmed as the 1500s began in the fires of war and replaced it with bloodshed and violence.
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I should really stop taking so long between chapters but here's another one at last. Its also time for a small confession, its only just really dawned on me that we're pretty firmly in the early modern era now which means I need to stop thinking about this like a medieval TL now! Either way, I hope you all like, comment and most importantly enjoy!
Gwyn
I know I keep promising updates and failing to deliver in any sensible time. In all honesty, this is mainly because I've reached a point in the TL where I don't really know where to go or what to do next and am just recycling old ideas. I'll have to have a think about this and decide what to do about from here on out.
On a happier note, the map I made of the Tripartite Indenture for this TL has, somewhat inexplicably, had a bit of a moment in the 'mainstream' spotlight recently. It started with the Northern Independence Party tweeting it to show how 'the United Kingdom isn't real' (their words) and now the Alternate Historian has done a YouTube video on it, even referencing this TL, so I thought I'd share the video here if anyone want to give it a watch.
On a happier note, the map I made of the Tripartite Indenture for this TL has, somewhat inexplicably, had a bit of a moment in the 'mainstream' spotlight recently. It started with the Northern Independence Party tweeting it to show how 'the United Kingdom isn't real' (their words) and now the Alternate Historian has done a YouTube video on it, even referencing this TL, so I thought I'd share the video here if anyone want to give it a watch.
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I live in the actual county of Northumberland and I've never heard of them.
Congrats, you will get your historical footnote alongside this guy
They more or less went public in November, though apparently they had been organizing this past year.
I have just finished this timeline and quite frankly am fascinated. I know that you might be struggling in where to go next but personally I think some more development of a Northern European age of exploration in the new world would ride you over whilst you decided what to do with Burgundy.
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